- address-policy-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Fwd: Policy violation
by Uros Gaber 18 Dec '18

18 Dec '18

Dear Aleksey, Maybe you miss the point of having IPv4 resources (at this time). It is not to resell and make a profit, but to use where the resources are scarce, I think we can (still) be happy that RIPE and its members have made a good job until now so that any new LIR has some IPv4 resources at their disposal. Kind regards, Uros Gaber On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 11:31 AM Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I think the NCC wants to have Monopoly for IP selling and doesn't want to > devide profit with anyone. > > Of course it has more profit if there are more members with multiple > accounts or many different accounts of different legal entities witch will > pay for many years later. > > вт, 18 дек. 2018 г., 12:40 Gert Doering gert(a)space.net: > >> Hi, >> >> On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 12:37:40PM +0300, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: >> > So then the NCC will say that it's non-commercial organization. >> >> This is not about making money. It is about making it clear that >> you can't just get cheap /22s from the RIPE NCC. >> >> But you know all that. >> >> Gert Doering >> -- NetMaster >> -- >> have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? >> >> SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael >> Emmer >> Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann >> D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) >> Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 >> >

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definition of "ASSIGNED PA" in IPv4 address allocation and assignment policy
by Martin Tonusoo 13 Nov '18

13 Nov '18

Hello, according to "IPv4 Address Allocation and Assignment Policies for the RIPE NCC Service Region"(ripe-708) document, the "status" attribute value "ASSIGNED PA" has a definition of "This address space has been assigned to an End User for use with services provided by the issuing LIR". As "ASSIGNED PA" should also be used for assignments for LIR own infrastructure, then isn't the definition of "This address space has been assigned to the issuing LIR infrastructure or End User for use with services provided by the issuing LIR." bit more accurate? Best regards, Martin Tonusoo IP Network Engineer -------------------------- CITIC Telecom CPC www.citictel-cpc.com -------------------------- Direct: +372 622 3321 NOC 24/7: +372 622 3300 NOC 24/7: +7 495 9815670

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Re: [address-policy-wg] Policies and Guidelines for Assignments for Network Infrastructure and End User Networks
by Marco Schmidt 07 Nov '18

07 Nov '18

Dear Töma, Thank you for your questions. Please allow me to provide some clarification. Regarding our LIR Training Course - it's important to note that this is intended to help people fulfil their role as representatives of a member. Our training courses do not provide a different interpretation of RIPE policies ("either more strict or more relaxed") - but rather represent the shared understanding and practices of network operators in the RIPE community. That being said, we are constantly reviewing our training material and will take another look at this with your feedback in mind. Nick and Leo have already provided some clarification around the historical context of section 6.2 of the policy (ripe-708). We agree with their comments and there's not much we can add beyond this. If you feel that the wording in this section is ambiguous, we invite you to make use of the Policy Development Process to propose a change to the policy. I will be happy to follow-up with you offline to provide more details and guidance to help you create a policy proposal. Kind regards, Marco Schmidt Policy Officer RIPE NCC Sent via RIPE Forum -- https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/forum

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Policies and Guidelines for Assignments for Network Infrastructure and End User Networks
by Töma Gavrichenkov 05 Nov '18

05 Nov '18

Hello WG (both, actually), A recent case of a Russian broadband ISP, roughly 6th in size in the country, exposing the personal data of their individual VIP customers by posting said data to RIPE DB(*) highlighted an important issue in RIPE-708, 6.2 "[policies and guidelines for assignments for] Network Infrastructure and End User Networks"(**). To quote: > IP addresses used solely for the connection of an End User to a service provider (e.g. point-to-point links) are considered part of the service provider's infrastructure. These addresses do not have to be registered with the End User's contact details but can be registered as part of the service provider's internal infrastructure. > When an End User has a network using public address space this _must_ be registered separately with the contact details of the End User. Where the End User is an individual rather than an organisation, the contact information of the service provider may be substituted for the End Users. (note the "must", we'll soon get back to it) While it's out of question that posting individual users' personal data to RIPE DB is insane, what's interesting is that small business owners(***), when aware of the leak, seem to also be concerned that their B2B broadband data contract apparently included a clause they've missed, and their mobile telephone number is now published to a public database on the Internet, and, you know, one cannot simply remove an information from the Internet which is already there. But when we try to rely on 6.2 for a definitive advice, we don't get any: - There's no definition of what is exactly meant under "point-to-point links" (PTPL). Some speculate it's a historical term from the times of PPP/SLIP, meaning just "end-user access links", and, as such, includes individual and SMB customer links. Other read it as those IPv4 /30s ASes waste all the time for BGP session establishment, and argue that what's really meant by PTPL is just the IP addresses never ever communicating with the world outside of their own local net (BGP sessions included, SMB access obviously not included). (Personally, the second opinion looks more convincing for me, because this way only those IP addresses which never send or receive packets from the Internet may lack a proper abuse-c, which makes sense, and I like when things make sense, so. But at the same time the first opinion is backed by people I respect.) Anyway, RIPE-708 fails to provide an answer. - Another scary term is "a network using public address space" (NUPAS). Is IPv4 /32 a network? What about /31? What's "using public address space" after all, there's no doubt we won't report our usage of 192.168.0.0/16 to RIPE DB. This sentence was meant to clear our concerns but it just adds up to them. What is also meant to help us but adds to the mess is the RIPE NCC Local Internet Registry Training Course(****), slides 94-95: - Somehow, training material includes more specific definitions and corner cases (e.g. "points of presence") than the policy does. Is it only me, or such a thing should never ever happen? A policy training course must not be different from the policy itself, no matter if the difference is in being either more strict of more relaxed. If an NCC trainer just knows more about the subject than is stated in a policy, they'd better report to the WG first that the policy lacks an important consideration. - However, those definitions don't really clarify what's PTPL and NUPAS are, too. - Slide 95 is even better: it says there's a grey area around. Well, it might be again only me, but personally I feel very uncomfortable seeing "must" and "grey area" in the same sentence. If there's a grey area in an area, it must be "should" there, not "must". - There's apparently a border line between "when the End User has a few addresses out of a larger address block" and "If the End User has a separate subnet". Now again, (an occasional?) /31 is a subnet or just a few addresses? Who's going to check ISPs against this strict ("must") requirement, and how? - What if there's a customer with an pizza store (so, an office within their location) and their own equipment (Mikrotik) connected to a broadband pool? - What if a broadband customer sets up an HTTP server on their point-to-point link's public v4 address and starts serving whatever children drug suicide abuse torrents they have. All in all, RIPE-708 6.2 is a perfect example of an imperfect policy, too strict and too vague at the same time. Which is bad, because a) some ISPs would just prefer to ignore it, no matter the "must", and would be paying less attention to other "musts" they would encounter in other policy documents, b) those ISPs who would choose to be responsible about RIPE DB usage risk losing customers and wouldn't be able to defend their attitude against the customers, let alone courts, based on the RIPE DB policy. So here are two separate things I propose, and I'd prefer them to be discussed and evaluated separately: 1) Ask the author of LIR training material to provide the WG (both) with the historical insight on what was meant in 6.2, and how's that supposed to work. Afterwards, after a heated discussion on the mailing list (both), make a decision and amend a policy towards either a more relaxed, or a more constraining fashion, but do either of things anyway, as there's no SLIP anymore, and such an irresponsible wording of a policy as it stands today undermines the trust in policy process, especially in some Eastern European and Northeast countries where there's hardly any trust even now. My personal suggestion is that the only border line that should be there is between businesses/organizations with public IP addresses, on one side, and individual users/NAT pools, on the other. If a company is using a public IP address space for any purpose at all, it must publish at least an abuse-c contact to a public IP database. Fair enough IMO. 2) Change 6.2 to reflect the fact that the contact information of End Users who are individuals not MAY, but rather MUST be substituted with the contact data of the service provider. This perfectly reflects currently ongoing legislation trends as well as a concern in the society at large, and also would be seen as a responsible attitude of an ISP community towards the personal data safety — an attitude the ISP community hardly used to show before. (*) — https://www.bbc.com/russian/news-46083410. Here's a Google Translate link for your convenience: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww… (**) — https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-708#62 (***) — My definition of a "small business" here might seem too broad, but if's fully grounded: e.g. Main Directorate for Drugs Control of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Russia, as a business, is definitely not so big; Alfa Bank is a large bank in Russia but Russian banking system is comparatively small when compared to the rest of the world; etc. (****) — https://www.ripe.net/support/training/material/lir-training-course/lir-slid… | Töma Gavrichenkov | gpg: 2deb 97b1 0a3c 151d b67f 1ee5 00e7 94bc 4d08 9191 | mailto: ximaera(a)gmail.com | fb: ximaera | telegram: xima_era | skype: xima_era | tel. no: +7 916 515 49 58

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proposed text for Assignment Clarification in IPv6 Policy (policy proposal 2018-02)
by JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 29 Oct '18

29 Oct '18

Hi all, Unfortunately, I've not received inputs on my question about what we want to be allowed in IPv6 PI, but as I'm working on this in other regions, got inputs in another region, which I think I can translate to this text: ** 2.6. Assign To "assign" means to delegate address space to an ISP or End User, for exclusive use within the infrastructure they operate, as well as for interconnection purposes. The address space assignment is only for use by the original holder of said assignment, as well as for third-party devices, as long as they are operating within the original holder infrastructure. PI space will provide typically, a small number of subnets, so it is not intended or desired to use PI space for access networks or commercial hosting and it is strongly recommended instead, using PA space for such purposes. ** This allows us to be "liberal" on using PI for data centers, which I think is the main issue of my previous version (https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2018-02), and also allow what somebody said is a "garage ISP" (a small ISP or DC that can start with very small cost o PI, and grow later on to PA). This will also align us with the goal of facilitating IPv6 deployment. Opinions? Regards, Jordi ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

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country code in ORGANISATION object
by denis walker 22 Oct '18

22 Oct '18

Hi all During the questions after Ingrid's presentation about the meaning of country codes it was mentioned that both the ORGANISATION and INET(6)NUM objects had a "country:" attribute. The suggestion was that maybe the one in the ORGANISATION object could reflect a legal country and the resources could be user specific. I can't see any mention anywhere of a "country:" attribute in an ORGANISATION object. It might be useful if it had one especially for the current discussion in NCC Services about legal address. cheersdenis

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What we want to be acceptable in IPv4 PI and IPv6 PI?
by JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 17 Oct '18

17 Oct '18

Hi all, Trying to look into my presentation today from a higher-level perspective ... What is the expected usage of IPv4 and IPv6 PI? It should be the same or different? Do we want to use IPv6 PI as an entry point for people, without any restrictions, to start providing services and then they can grow up to become an LIR? That means that an IPv6 PI can be used to provide hosting/housing services? What about broadband services to end-users? Peter, maybe you have a different perspective about how to approach this. Can you share it in the list? Regards, Jordi ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

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2018-02 Discussion Phase Extended (Assignment Clarification in IPv6 Policy)
by Marco Schmidt 03 Oct '18

03 Oct '18

Dear colleagues, RIPE Policy proposal 2018-02, "Assignment Clarification in IPv6 Policy" is still available for discussion. This proposal aims to clarify the definition of "Assign" in the IPv6 Policy (ripe-707, section 2.6). You can find the full proposal at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2018-02 As per the RIPE Policy Development Process (PDP), the purpose of this three week extended Discussion Phase is to discuss the proposal and provide feedback to the proposer. At the end of the Discussion Phase, the proposer, with the agreement of the WG Chairs, will decide how to proceed with the proposal. We encourage you to review this proposal and send your comments to <address-policy-wg(a)ripe.net> before 25 October 2018. Regards, Marco Schmidt Policy Officer RIPE NCC Sent via RIPE Forum -- https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/forum

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RIPE 76 Address Policy WG Draft Minutes
by Marco Schmidt 02 Oct '18

02 Oct '18

Dear colleagues, The draft minutes from the Address Policy Working Group sessions at RIPE 76 have now been published: https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/ap/minutes/ripe-76-address-policy-… Please let us know of any corrections or amendments. Kind regards, Marco Schmidt Policy Officer RIPE NCC Sent via RIPE Forum -- https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/forum

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Draft Agenda RIPE77 - Address Policy
by Erik Bais 01 Oct '18

01 Oct '18

Hi APWG folks, Below you can find a draft for the RIPE address policy WG meeting's agenda, which will take place in Amsterdam in the side-room in the following time slots: Wednesday, Oct 17, 09:00 - 10:30 Wednesday, Oct 17, 11:00 - 12:30 If you have anything else you want to see on the agenda, or if we need to change anything, please let us know. Regards, Gert Döring & Erik Bais, APWG chairs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wednesday, 09:00-10:30 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A. Administrative Matters (welcome, thanking the scribe, approving the minutes, etc.) B. Update on 2018 - 04 - PDP Clarification to the WG. ( discussion was done on RIPE Discussion list ) C. Current Policy Topics - Marco Schmidt, NCC PDO - global policy overview "what's going on?" - common policy topics in all regions (end of IPv4, transfers, ...) - overview over concluded proposals in the RIPE region since RIPE 76 - brief overview of new proposals (if any) D. IPv4 end-game and afterlife - Andrea Cima, RIPE NCC (+ discussion with the group) E. Country codes in the extended delegated statistics and RIPE DB. by Ingrid Wijte, RIPE NCC ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wednesday, 11:00-12:30 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome back F. Discussion of open policy proposals 2018-02 Assignment Clarification in IPv6 Policy Jordi Palet Martinez Y. Open Policy Hour The Open Policy Hour is a showcase for your policy ideas. If you have a policy proposal you'd like to debut, prior to formally submitting it, here is your opportunity. Z. AOB

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