Jordi, Is there currently an instance of mass IPv6 hoarding occurring? Not a theoretical – an actual instance. Requiring justification for all allocations was required under IPv4 because there was a motivation to hoard that simply doesn’t exist under IPv6. With IPv4, we foresaw a shortage – and thus a motivation for hoarding – long before it happened. RFC 1883, the first IPv6 definition, was published in 1995 and cites “Expanded Addressing Capabilities” as the first major change category. Requiring an allocation to be justified is not the baseline; it is an imposed requirement. It wasn’t imposed for initial /29 allocations to prevent most LIRs from having to spend time justifying a resource that isn’t that scarce, saving both the LIR and the NCC some time and effort. If this results in a LIR ending up with a few /29s in aggregate, I don’t really see a problem – the resource just isn’t that limited. Regards, Jacob Slater On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 12:52 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg <address-policy-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
Hi Cynthia,
Exactly, that’s the point, there is no incentive – the only incentive is stockpiling, just in case IPv6 becomes scarse and may create a problem like the lack of IPv4, even if this takes 30 years, or 100 years, and you want to secure the funding of the kids of your kids by having a resource that then, will be subjected to market price and transfers.
If I understood correctly from Nikolas presentation (please, correct me if I’m wrong), the bigger ISPs, typically have a single LIR with a big allocation, but they don’t have (because they aren’t typically interested in games, just justified need), multiple LIRs with multiple IPv6 allocations (or at least not big ones).
Regards,
Jordi
El 28/10/20 13:47, "address-policy-wg en nombre de Cynthia Revström via address-policy-wg" <address-policy-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de address-policy-wg@ripe.net> escribió:
Hi,
While I will admit it's a bit odd to allocate that much v6 space to a single entity, I don't see how this is going to cause issues based on what is currently happening, like this is not happening at scale.
Sure there might be a /21 (256x /29) of IPv6 space assigned to LIRs who already had a /29. but there are many large ISPs who alone have more space than this. Telia has a /20, China Telecom has a /16.
Additionally there is no real incentive to request multiple /29s other than very rare cases. unless LIRs requesting like 16x /29s are a common occurrence, this is a non issue imo.
disclaimer: I do have 3x /29 for a reason that may seem like a waste to some people and my specific issue could probably be solved by RIPE allowing me to split my /29 into /32s.
-Cynthia
On Wed, 28 Oct 2020, 13:05 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg, <address-policy-wg@ripe.net> wrote:
Hi all,
After Nikolas presentation today, I've been thinking on possible ways to resolve this, so before sending a possible policy proposal, I think it deserves some discussion.
The intent of the proposal 2018-01 (https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2018-01), was to align the IPv4 and IPv6 policies in the matter of an LIR vs organization.
We must remind that the allocation/assignment of resources is based on justified need. And yes, we have a lot of IPv6 space, but it is really justified and the same organization, having different LIRs, can use it as a trick for stockpiling if there is not such justified need?
In IPv4 this is not "a problem" because we don't have more space. Well ... not exactly true ... some organizations could have used "the trick" to get more IPv4 space by creating multiple LIRs.
In other regions, I think this is not a problem because the cost of the membership is not per "LIR" (flat rate in RIPE NCC), but based on the size of the allocation/assignment. So, because IPv6 is not a scarce resource, it seems there is no incentive to pay more for getting more if you're not really using it.
However, in RIPE NCC, if you created several LIRs for getting more IPv4 allocations, *even if you don't use/need it* you can get (and thus stockpile) IPv6 *at no extra cost*.
I clearly think this is not a good thing.
It seems to me that the problem lies in section 5.1.1. Initial allocation criteria, and exactly here: b) have a plan for making sub-allocations to other organisations and/or End Site assignments within two years.
So, is the problem that "a plan" is not sufficient if it is not "verified" and the "bad guys" know that the chances for having it verified are too small?
Do we need some text about "recovery if not announced and used" ?
Other ideas?
Remember that the problem is not only about scarcity. This extra space may be used "intermittently" for bad or even criminal activities and we have a responsibility on that as a community.
Regards, Jordi @jordipalet
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