Re: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy)
He thought it needed to be withdrawn because he concluded that there was no consensus - and that conclusion is not his to make. So that's what Gert responded to. Remco Sent from my HTC ----- Reply message ----- From: "Riccardo Gori" <rgori@wirem.net> To: <address-policy-wg@ripe.net> Subject: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy) Date: Thu, Jul 21, 2016 20:29 I see he said "I think". I think list exists because everyone should be left free to express his own opinion, that's not taking decision. regards Riccardo Il 21/07/2016 20:07, Gert Doering ha scritto: Hi, On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 08:40:38PM +0300, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote: I think, it is time to withdraw this proposal due to we haven't reached the consensus. This is not your call to make. Gert Doering -- APWG chair -- Ing. Riccardo Gori e-mail: rgori@wirem.net Mobile: +39 339 8925947 Mobile: +34 602 009 437 Profile: https://it.linkedin.com/in/riccardo-gori-74201943 WIREM Fiber Revolution Net-IT s.r.l. Via Cesare Montanari, 2 47521 Cesena (FC) Tel +39 0547 1955485 Fax +39 0547 1950285 -------------------------------------------------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This message and its attachments are addressed solely to the persons above and may contain confidential information. If you have received the message in error, be informed that any use of the content hereof is prohibited. Please return it immediately to the sender and delete the message. Should you have any questions, please contact us by re- plying to info@wirem.net Thank you WIREM - Net-IT s.r.l.Via Cesare Montanari, 2 - 47521 Cesena (FC) --------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Remco, In some way I agree with you and Gert but I think everyone should be left free to express his own opinion regarding numbers policies as well as consensus. In my point of view starting a sentence with "I think" or "let's withdraw" doesn't change the meaning of expressing your own opinion. That's not taking decision on it and looks pretty clear that declaring consensus or not it's chairs job. regards Riccardo Il 21/07/2016 21:35, remco.vanmook@gmail.com ha scritto:
He thought it needed to be withdrawn because he concluded that there was no consensus - and that conclusion is not his to make. So that's what Gert responded to.
Remco
Sent from my HTC
----- Reply message ----- From: "Riccardo Gori" <rgori@wirem.net> To: <address-policy-wg@ripe.net> Subject: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy) Date: Thu, Jul 21, 2016 20:29
I see he said "I think". I think list exists because everyone should be left free to express his own opinion, that's not taking decision. regards Riccardo
Il 21/07/2016 20:07, Gert Doering ha scritto:
Hi,
On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 08:40:38PM +0300, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
I think, it is time to withdraw this proposal due to we haven't reached the consensus. This is not your call to make.
Gert Doering -- APWG chair
-- Ing. Riccardo Gori e-mail:rgori@wirem.net Mobile: +39 339 8925947 Mobile: +34 602 009 437 Profile:https://it.linkedin.com/in/riccardo-gori-74201943 WIREM Fiber Revolution Net-IT s.r.l. Via Cesare Montanari, 2 47521 Cesena (FC) Tel +39 0547 1955485 Fax +39 0547 1950285
-------------------------------------------------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This message and its attachments are addressed solely to the persons above and may contain confidential information. If you have received the message in error, be informed that any use of the content hereof is prohibited. Please return it immediately to the sender and delete the message. Should you have any questions, please contact us by re- plying toinfo@wirem.net Thank you WIREM - Net-IT s.r.l.Via Cesare Montanari, 2 - 47521 Cesena (FC) --------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Ing. Riccardo Gori e-mail: rgori@wirem.net Mobile: +39 339 8925947 Mobile: +34 602 009 437 Profile: https://it.linkedin.com/in/riccardo-gori-74201943 WIREM Fiber Revolution Net-IT s.r.l. Via Cesare Montanari, 2 47521 Cesena (FC) Tel +39 0547 1955485 Fax +39 0547 1950285 -------------------------------------------------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This message and its attachments are addressed solely to the persons above and may contain confidential information. If you have received the message in error, be informed that any use of the content hereof is prohibited. Please return it immediately to the sender and delete the message. Should you have any questions, please contact us by re- plying to info@wirem.net Thank you WIREM - Net-IT s.r.l.Via Cesare Montanari, 2 - 47521 Cesena (FC) --------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, just wondering why the page still says Awaiting Decision from Proposer - *15 July 2016* Since you are around to respond, any idea when you you take a decision? regards, elvis On 7/21/16 10:35 PM, remco.vanmook@gmail.com wrote:
He thought it needed to be withdrawn because he concluded that there was no consensus - and that conclusion is not his to make. So that's what Gert responded to.
Remco
Sent from my HTC
----- Reply message ----- From: "Riccardo Gori" <rgori@wirem.net> To: <address-policy-wg@ripe.net> Subject: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy) Date: Thu, Jul 21, 2016 20:29
I see he said "I think". I think list exists because everyone should be left free to express his own opinion, that's not taking decision. regards Riccardo
Il 21/07/2016 20:07, Gert Doering ha scritto:
Hi,
On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 08:40:38PM +0300, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
I think, it is time to withdraw this proposal due to we haven't reached the consensus. This is not your call to make.
Gert Doering -- APWG chair
-- Ing. Riccardo Gori e-mail:rgori@wirem.net Mobile: +39 339 8925947 Mobile: +34 602 009 437 Profile:https://it.linkedin.com/in/riccardo-gori-74201943 WIREM Fiber Revolution Net-IT s.r.l. Via Cesare Montanari, 2 47521 Cesena (FC) Tel +39 0547 1955485 Fax +39 0547 1950285
-------------------------------------------------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This message and its attachments are addressed solely to the persons above and may contain confidential information. If you have received the message in error, be informed that any use of the content hereof is prohibited. Please return it immediately to the sender and delete the message. Should you have any questions, please contact us by re- plying toinfo@wirem.net Thank you WIREM - Net-IT s.r.l.Via Cesare Montanari, 2 - 47521 Cesena (FC) --------------------------------------------------------------------
-- <http://v4escrow.net> Elvis Daniel Velea Chief Executive Officer E-mail: elvis@V4Escrow.net <mailto:elvis@v4escrow.net> Mobile: +1 (702) 970 0921 Recognised IPv4 Broker/Facilitator in:
Hi, On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 11:14:24PM +0300, Elvis Daniel Velea wrote:
just wondering why the page still says Awaiting Decision from Proposer - *15 July 2016*
Since you are around to respond, any idea when you you take a decision?
The discussion was... complicated. This needs some quiet time to wade through all the mails again, try to make sense of some of the more confused ones, see if they actually contain points that could have been addressed or not, and whether they *have* been addressed, and so on. I've had easier discussion to judge, and less repetitive-nonsensical ones. Gert Doering -- APWG chair -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi Gert, On 7/21/16 11:22 PM, Gert Doering wrote:
Hi,
just wondering why the page still says Awaiting Decision from Proposer - *15 July 2016*
Since you are around to respond, any idea when you you take a decision? The discussion was... complicated. This needs some quiet time to wade
On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 11:14:24PM +0300, Elvis Daniel Velea wrote: through all the mails again, try to make sense of some of the more confused ones, see if they actually contain points that could have been addressed or not, and whether they *have* been addressed, and so on.
I've had easier discussion to judge, and less repetitive-nonsensical ones. it says awaiting decision from _proposer_ and not from WG Chairs. That is why I was asking the proposer.
cheers, elvis
Gert Doering -- APWG chair
-- <http://v4escrow.net> Elvis Daniel Velea Chief Executive Officer E-mail: elvis@V4Escrow.net <mailto:elvis@v4escrow.net> Mobile: +1 (702) 970 0921 Recognised IPv4 Broker/Facilitator in:
Hi Elvis,
I've had easier discussion to judge, and less repetitive-nonsensical ones.
it says awaiting decision from proposer and not from WG Chairs. That is why I was asking the proposer.
Just for clarity, this is what the PDP says:
[RIPE-642 section 2.2] At the end of the Discussion Phase, the proposer, with the agreement of the WG chair, decides whether the proposal will move to the next phase (Review Phase) or if it should be withdrawn from the RIPE PDP, depending on the feedback received. This should be done no more than four weeks after the end of the Discussion Phase.
So the chairs need to make up their minds about if they can agree with the proposer. This involves a lot of manual work (as Gert said: analysing the mailing list archives etc) so this takes time. The discussion phase ended on 15 July. And the four week period that is common for that type of decision hasn't expired yet. And even if it had, it says "should be done" not "must be done", so if we stick to the definitions of RFC2119 that timeline may be changed if circumstances require. In short: if you're going to be pedantic please read the relevant documents first. The discussion phase has ended. The microphones are closed. And give your chairs some breathing room to do their (volunteer) jobs properly. Cheers, Sander PS: because I got involved in the discussion and questioned some people's statements to keep the discussion honest I am abstaining on any decisions regarding this proposal to avoid any semblance of conflict of interest. This means Gert is doing all the hard work all by himself...
Hi Elvis,
I've had easier discussion to judge, and less repetitive-nonsensical ones. it says awaiting decision from proposer and not from WG Chairs. That is why I was asking the proposer. Just for clarity, this is what the PDP says:
[RIPE-642 section 2.2] At the end of the Discussion Phase, the proposer, with the agreement of the WG chair, decides whether the proposal will move to the next phase (Review Phase) or if it should be withdrawn from the RIPE PDP, depending on the feedback received. This should be done no more than four weeks after the end of the Discussion Phase.
Hi Sander, On 7/22/16 1:41 AM, Sander Steffann wrote: than maybe it should be made clearer on the webpage. While I do appreciate the 'upgrade' of the page - it used to be worse - it can be improved :)
So the chairs need to make up their minds about if they can agree with the proposer. This involves a lot of manual work (as Gert said: analysing the mailing list archives etc) so this takes time. The discussion phase ended on 15 July. And the four week period that is common for that type of decision hasn't expired yet. And even if it had, it says "should be done" not "must be done", so if we stick to the definitions of RFC2119 that timeline may be changed if circumstances require.
In short: if you're going to be pedantic please read the relevant documents first. The discussion phase has ended. The microphones are closed. And give your chairs some breathing room to do their (volunteer) jobs properly.
I have, many times, I used to refer to the same documentation when I was a part-time trainer at the NCC :) Again, the website says the phase is complete and is "Awaiting Decision from the Proposer". Maybe it should still be 'green' and not 'blue' and maybe it should say something else and not 'awaiting a decision from someone until one week ago'. For example, maybe it should say - Discussion Period ended on July 15th - 1-4 weeks until next phase/decision. Or maybe it should have more columns, one for each phase in this process (+ one for each of the periods in between the phases).
Cheers, Sander
PS: because I got involved in the discussion and questioned some people's statements to keep the discussion honest I am abstaining on any decisions regarding this proposal to avoid any semblance of conflict of interest. This means Gert is doing all the hard work all by himself...
while I appreciate your position, I was under the impression that Gert - with his replies on June 20th - did take sides more than you did. I will leave it to the WG Chairs Collective to decide if he did take sides or not and whether any of you can still decide consensus on this policy proposal (ripe-642 3.1 &4). I do not intend to submit an appeal unless this policy proposal moves forward to Review Phase.. so I am waiting for the decision of the proposer - as the website says :) regards, Elvis
Hi, On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 02:34:28AM +0300, Elvis Daniel Velea wrote:
I do not intend to submit an appeal unless this policy proposal moves forward to Review Phase.. so I am waiting for the decision of the proposer - as the website says :)
So we have two participants now trying to force the chair's hand, right? What you say above can be paraphrased to "if we *do* move it forward, you're going to submit an appeal", right? Alexsey says "there is no consensus, so it should be withdrawn". I hope you understand why this is fully and totally unacceptable (to avoid using far less polite words). You are free to *think* what you expect the result will be, and you are free to appeal afterwards if you do not accept the summary and reasoning(!) given by the chair(s), but threatening action beforehand in case the desired outcome is not to your liking is... amazing. Gert Doering -- APWG chair -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi, On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 11:40:43PM +0300, Elvis Daniel Velea wrote:
it says awaiting decision from _proposer_ and not from WG Chairs. That is why I was asking the proposer.
This is not totally clear in the label: the decision is made jointly by proposer and WG chair(s). The proposer cannot say "oh, go ahead!" when the chairs do not see consensus. (The proposer *can* say "withdraw!" without chair approval, though :) ). (You know that from your own proposals, anyway) Gert Doering -- APWG chair -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi again, fatty fingers, wanted to still edit the last line and hit the wrong key... On 7/21/16 11:14 PM, Elvis Daniel Velea wrote:
Hi,
just wondering why the page still says Awaiting Decision from Proposer - *15 July 2016*
Since you are around to respond, any idea when you you take a decision?
this was meant to say: Since you are around to respond, any idea when you will make that decision? It's almost a week overdue. cheers, elvis
regards, elvis
On 7/21/16 10:35 PM, remco.vanmook@gmail.com wrote:
He thought it needed to be withdrawn because he concluded that there was no consensus - and that conclusion is not his to make. So that's what Gert responded to.
Remco
Sent from my HTC
----- Reply message ----- From: "Riccardo Gori" <rgori@wirem.net> To: <address-policy-wg@ripe.net> Subject: [address-policy-wg] 2016-03 Discussion Period extended until 15 July 2016 (Locking Down the Final /8 Policy) Date: Thu, Jul 21, 2016 20:29
I see he said "I think". I think list exists because everyone should be left free to express his own opinion, that's not taking decision. regards Riccardo
Il 21/07/2016 20:07, Gert Doering ha scritto:
Hi,
On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 08:40:38PM +0300, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
I think, it is time to withdraw this proposal due to we haven't reached the consensus. This is not your call to make.
Gert Doering -- APWG chair
-- Ing. Riccardo Gori e-mail:rgori@wirem.net Mobile: +39 339 8925947 Mobile: +34 602 009 437 Profile:https://it.linkedin.com/in/riccardo-gori-74201943
participants (6)
-
Elvis Daniel Velea -
Elvis Daniel Velea -
Gert Doering -
remco.vanmook＠gmail.com -
Riccardo Gori -
Sander Steffann