Re: [address-policy-wg] 2007-08 New Policy Proposal (Enabling Methods for Reallocation of IPv4 Resources)
Max and all, why can't it be enforced now? Why can these unused IP's be reclimed or at least parto of them? -----Original Message-----
From: Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> Sent: Nov 3, 2007 4:40 PM To: address-policy-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] 2007-08 New Policy Proposal (Enabling Methods for Reallocation of IPv4 Resources)
Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
Leo has already proved that a (fairly simple) reclamation job takes a lot of time and resource. This is for a /8 that no one much wanted and no one much used.
Was that the 14/8 thing? Only 129 individual addresses out of 16777216 where used. Maybe just reclaiming the other 16777087 would have been more efficient.
May be. But sorry, you can't enforce it now. You even have no time to make an implemented in the real life policy that can reclaim any block before free IP space will be finished.
So, we have to live with market. Not only because of it. The only we can do is to make that market white and clear.
-- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253@FIDO)
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Because there is no such policy right now. Because it needs some time to develop that policy. And implement it. And enforce world to follow it. RIPE should become roting police, and they don't want. As I understand, THERE IS NO .... WAY TO FORCE RECLAIM ANY DELEGATED ADDRESS SPACE NOW :) And there is also no concrete ways and common policies even to enforce stop somebody starting announce YOUR address space. Sometime I think the first smart and assertive woodpecker will ruin the Net :( jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com wrote:
why can't it be enforced now? Why can these unused IP's be reclimed or at least parto of them?
-- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253@FIDO)
Hi, Max Tulyev schrieb:
Because there is no such policy right now. Because it needs some time to develop that policy. And implement it. And enforce world to follow it. RIPE should become roting police, and they don't want.
As I understand, THERE IS NO .... WAY TO FORCE RECLAIM ANY DELEGATED ADDRESS SPACE NOW :)
And there is also no concrete ways and common policies even to enforce stop somebody starting announce YOUR address space. Sometime I think the first smart and assertive woodpecker will ruin the Net :(
that depends on what you mean by "RIPE" now - the NCC certainly does what the community/members want. But if you mean the RIPE community, you're pretty right - of course 99% commercial thinking LIRs who certainly think a market is more appealing. Heck, i have to pay my bills, too, so i even understand that in general. A policy can be implemented really quickly, just see some of this years policy proposals. But not with all this commercial thinking people on here. That is why democracy sucks, it only works with a majority of competent people, not with a majoriy of incompetent, egoistic populists - just like in any democratic state, too :-) I personally won't ever agree on any price tag on IP addresses, but as (commercial thinking) consultant i'm a realist and know this is already happening ("selling IP Addresess to customers") and it certainly will happen ("re-selling of Allocations"). But i always will raise my voice against any marketplace or anything. Of course, there is no veto right here unfortunately :-) My position here is, the current policies are fine, all allocations and assignments should be need-based, forever. And RIR-resources (manpower) should be allocated on reclaiming unused space. If the community would WANT the RIRs to be routing police, it would be possible to implement that in no time (in theory, in reality you have the legal problems with multiple countries). But that's just not what is going to happen for the given reasons (egoism, incompetence, money...). What i don't get is why we should make that EASY. As commercial thinking consultant i prefer the process to be very complicated so i get more money! </sarcasm> What i'm saying here? I don't know, it's sunday. Just want my statement in the mail-archives so i can point to it later if my children ask me why their IT-startup can't get IPv4-addresses because only big companies who are able to pay 1000EUR/IPv4address get all of them and why i wasn't there back than, trying to prevent this marketplace-mess. [again, a bit of sarcasm there, i don't hope that IPv4 is needed that badly anymore in 20years when my possible children possibly get into IT :-)] -- ======================================================================== = Sascha Lenz SLZ-RIPE slz@baycix.de = = Network Operations = = BayCIX GmbH, Landshut * PGP public Key on demand * = ========================================================================
Thanks to fate, I can think like technician, like manager and like commercial together :) Let's see it as from manager position. Our goals is 1) to make possibility FORCE reclaim IPs (now I don't even touch ASNs) and 2) give that IPs to other company. For clear delegation reclaimed IPs to other companies RIR should be sure this net is not using anywhere else. So our primary goal is to make a way to force stop using the net in the Internet. Currently there is no way to do that. To make it possible, we should implement the database, or certification system, or something like that and enforce ALL THE WORLD to use it. The funny thing that we can't enforce world to do it now. There is no such policies and methods of using existing force :) So only we can do - to have world want to use that system and actually to implement that system. It is 2-5 years after policy will be accepted, bases created and anything is ready to work. Second disadvantage is complete lose of current net structure. World should believe central registry and follow it. There is no more unity of free independent autonomous networks. There will be a "Megaswitch" that can switch off any net for example by political reasons. Sure it WILL be used for censorship and illegal "competition". Who will maintain that Megaswitch? How? Only AFTER we have working Megaswitch, we can [force] reclaim IPs. But it will be the Other Internet... Sascha Lenz wrote:
A policy can be implemented really quickly, just see some of this years policy proposals. But not with all this commercial thinking people on here.
-- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253@FIDO)
participants (3)
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jwkckid1＠ix.netcom.com -
Max Tulyev -
Sascha Lenz