Frederic wrote: [..]

You keep eu.org but you do not talk about .st and .nf.

Actually I ignore eu.org completely, as it is just a subdomain and talked mostly about the rest. There are several, probably thousands, of such domains where you can get a subdomain for free. All without a requirement to pay or any contract, except their rules. Anyone remember ml.org? Indeed, they don't exist anymore either. http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=ml.org still has a small recording about this.

and eu.org was made because you do not have choice today with domain. and that why i do not want the same thing for IP.

As you are so persistent in your analogy and don't seem to get the point where your analogy is wrong, lets try another way: There is a *FREE* way for you to get an IPv6 block, just get a tunnel from one of the several IPv6 Tunnel Brokers out there. They will provide you, for free, one or even multiple /48's to your site. You are free to use them, though under the conditions they set, just like your 'eu.org' and 'nf' 'st' etc domains. They also take care of the routing, the transit and everything, all for free. The trick is, you can't/should not announce that /48 into BGP though, as that is their conditions. Also you do not have any rights whatsoever for that /48, it can go any time you want. Because of them handling the routing, and them deciding you can keep the domain^Wsubnet, you are dependent, just like DNS, on them and their service to keep on existing and providing it to you. If you want something for free, the conditions are also free, anything can happen. If you have a contract though, that contract defines what can happen.

and like i said many time, is all the freedom to have other thing possible that the main stream.

The above example 'preserves' your freedom, though it locks you in, just like those TLD's and eu.org to their rules. You are btw absolutely not independent with those domains, you are fully dependent on what they decide to do with their domain and if they even keep it running or allow you to use it. There is no contact thus no guarantees, if you have a contract you have something to come back at. Maybe you should start to understand that IP are not domain names.

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As for the whining about any fees at all, those fees are nothing compared to the hardware and transit costs you will have, especially when you will need to buy a really big new router when a lot of sites get PI, or do you expect all of that for free too? (if the answer is yes, then ask the people who sponsor those things to also sponsor the little bit of cash for the prefix)

False. LIR FEES is huge for a non profit company with vulunteer.

Get better sponsors for your project, or just fit in with what everybody else does. If your project is not that important to get good enough sponsors you do not need to have PI either.

and hardware and place in the internet are today not expensive. And when that was expensive you had not money for only administartive purpose.

As mentioned, if/when routing tables explode, your cheap hardware won't work anymore as it all has to be replaced. You will the first one to be then cut off that nice Internet. Does PI help then? You still won't have the money to actually connect to it and actually use it. What exactly are the requirements for which you require PI anyway? As you don't seem to be able to understand the difference between domain names and IP addresses, maybe you are just misinformed and you should be consulted so that you understand the other possibilities that you have for solving your problem.

Main stream of the internet is commercial but today you have the possibility to do not follow this main stream.

tomorrow is not possible because you have contract.

That is called evolution. 2000 years ago you could have occupied the US yourself and made yourself president. Now everything is owned by somebody else. Change happens. Either you go along, or you stick to your little rock.

Internet still works and works with gentlement agreement, and anyway you can hijack youtube's PA with the LIR status....

I would say: go for it. It doesn't take long for you to disappear from the Internet then. A lot of people don't like other people messing with their networks. Greets, Jeroen

Frederic wrote:

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Internet still works and works with gentlement agreement, and anyway you can hijack youtube's PA with the LIR status.... I would say: go for it.

It doesn't take long for you to disappear from the Internet then. A lot of people don't like other people messing with their networks.

yes of course, so contract change nothing for a correct relationship. gentleman agreement works fine.

With a contract somebody can sue you, with a "gentlemans agreement" one can't. What is your opposition to contracts at all? You will have to set up several contracts anyway already: - Sponsors - Connectivity provider (L2) - Connectivity provider (L3) - Datacenter, or separate: Power, Cooling etc - Security and a lot more. You do set up those, but you don't want them for a bit of address space. Odd. What do you have to worry about, that a contract doesn't suit you?

i talk about domain for procedure to keep in touch with the holder.

and after about why some domain are free (no contract and no fees), the must important is free to USE (because no contract).

As mentioned, when you get free stuff, it is not you who decided on how to use it.

of course IP are not domain.

i explain that is interesting to have the possiblity to have relationship with ripe when your are an internet ressource holder without to be be a LIR.

And to do that you will need to sign a contract with RIPE. You will be liable and responsible for the address block that you might receive. This all under the conditions set forth by the community.

but i would have the choice and let the choice to other. The contract of ripe will be interesting because you will have choice to say yes or no.

You have a simple two way choice: - you sign a contract and get your PI - you don't sign a contract and you don't.

if you need PI and after you grow, you can become LIR and change you PI with PA and like this have a contract with RIPE.

PI can't be converted to PA. PI is for end-sites. PA is for ISP's who provide aggregated connectivity to end-sites. What where your requirements again for all of this? Greets, Jeroen

On 09/04/2008 06:23, "Frederic" <frederic@placenet.org> wrote: [...]

Today if i justify to receive a PI, i have it without any Contractual Obligation.

Can you please explain why you are concerned about contractual obligations? The current system is slightly ambiguous and it could be argued that this places registrants in a risky situation. The RIPE NCC could act capriciously, or make a mistake, and revoke an assignment. The (now ex) registrant would be at a disadvantage when they sought redress. I personally think the scenario described above is very unlikely but nonetheless, it is a possibility. In my opinion, introducing contracts is as much about protecting the registrant as it is about protecting the RIPE NCC and the community of network operators. Regards, Leo Vegoda

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.st .nf or .eu.org. all are free. You keep eu.org but you do not talk about .st and .nf.

In fact, .st and .nf are not free. Check http://www.nic.st and https://secure.nf/ if you don't believe me. At the .nf registry you have to do a name search and click "Register" to see the prices. Anything that simplifies the chain of contractual relationships, like 2007-01, is a good policy. Since it is optional, it means that end users who already contract for other services from an LIR, can continue to maintain their IP addressing relationship with the LIR. But there are other end users with IP addresses who do not have a need for any other services from an LIR. It does not make sense to force them to contract with an LIR for only this one service, which is NEVER the core business of the LIR. That's why 2007-01 is a good proposal since it allows these end users to contract directly with RIPE where IP addressing *IS* the core business. --Michael Dillon