February 2017 - anti-abuse-wg

Why SPAM exists in 2017
by ox 11 Feb '17

11 Feb '17

Hello Everyone, Famously, during 2004, Bill Gates promised the world that Spam would no longer exist by 2006. More than a decade later, spam even penetrates the very best "insert whatever name here" technology. It is 2017 and apparently society does not understand why spam still exists. Of course, all of us know why there is still spam. //donning flame retardant suit (and tinfoil hat for good measure... ) For those that lurk to learn, or, for anyone with no pov on why there is still spam: ******************************** Spam exists because society does not agree on a single protocol to stop spam. (We do not all even agree on the definition of what spam is.) In society, some filter emails by DNS, some by IP number (worrying about dropping emails from co-located domains that have not updated their wordpress and are pumping out 1 legit email for every 1000 spam, etc etc - we should also discuss this sometime?) ******************************** The concern for "false positives" outrank that of sender reputation and is out of whack. (and we, society, do not want to change this) let us take a closer look at a practical (and factual) example of this imbalance: Fact: Both Google.com and Yahoo.com send out spam (unsolicited bulk email - where bulk is defined as more than one or two of the same email and unsolicited - as simply not requested or expected) Fact: We all receive many times more spam from yahoo.com as we do from google.com even though google.com transmits many times more ham than yahoo.com (Another simple truth: We all receive much more criminal activity from yahoo.com than from google.com) If you wish to dispute these simple and factual numbers you can look at the IP ranges in public data related to abuse, as the statistics report exactly the same facts that I am claiming (and experiencing)) Yet, we will be hard pressed to 'drop" incoming from yahoo.com simply based on sender score, we also do not use other RBL, that lists Google.com IP numbers, for drop. (as our users would have hissy fits if they did not get email from example@yahoo or example@gmail - in fact - they may simply move their email hosting to google... - because google/yahoo cannot be wrong, it has to be @example_of_small_isp... Our user(s) want to receive email from grandma, even though grandma has just dumped 10000 unsolicited emails asking for donations to send her old age club to the beach for "insert name of special and/or religious holiday here" Your thoughts? Andre

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 63, Issue 10
by Marilson 06 Feb '17

06 Feb '17

Thank you very much Mr chair or co-chair... whatever... You did again. You picked up my answer to Mr. Jeffrey and eliminated paragraphs and spaces. You put it all together. With my bad English nor I understand what I wrote. The RIPE reminds me of the bathhouse (a euphemism for a brothel) from the movie Miyazaki's Spirited Away. A dark tale where Chihiro has to satisfy a series of grotesque customers. And always working in the shadows under the cloak of "refined persons". Marilson ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2017 12:24 PM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 63, Issue 10 Send anti-abuse-wg mailing list submissions to anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net You can reach the person managing the list at anti-abuse-wg-owner(a)ripe.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of anti-abuse-wg digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 63, Issue 8 (Marilson) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 12:24:31 -0200 From: "Marilson" <marilson.mapa(a)gmail.com> To: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Cc: jrace(a)attglobal.net, andre(a)ox.co.za Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 63, Issue 8 Message-ID: <13AE051340D540B0AB1C4DF421990193@xPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Tell me, are you open to criticism or are cowards. > Really, none of this is useful or in any way related to network abuse. That phrase would only make sense if it were said before distilling your poison. If it were said before sending me away politely. You could say, hey man, you are not welcome here, go away. Or you can say this "politely" as you did, but it's the same thing. What you call politeness is, in fact, hypocrisy. It is the acts that qualify people, not what they write. > This is a list to discuss, in a professional manner, ways to deal, via technology, policy or other methods, with abuse on the Internet. It is what you have been doing for three years (?) Without any consequence or reduction of abuse to the internet user. > Thankfully this is what the vast, vast majority of people on this list do. The vast, vast majority of people on this list represent ISPs ? they are fox taking care of henhouse. > It is not a place to attack others I've been attacked several times, as I am now, and no one says shit. > It's a place to work together, to find common ground and to reach consensus There was always consensus in this pro-abuse-wg. > It is also not a place to directly report abuse. The directly report abuse shows how and who is practicing abuse. But you're right. This is useless information because the goal is not to outlaw the criminal actions of ISPs, but rather to guarantee the billing that this criminal attitude achieves. > If you aren't here for that, then I suggest you go somewhere else on the Internet. This is the third time you've sent me away. Here, where the main perpetrators of Internet abuse are protected, is the right place. If you knew for whom I send hidden copy you would not be so comfortable in your easy speech. Mr. Jeffrey Race, most members of this group ?do not adopt revolutionary strategies not because they are too stupid to do so but because it is contrary to their interests.? Jeffrey, do you want deny this affirmation for the second time? Remember that? 1973? You decided to judge me without knowing anything at all about me. Perhaps this kind of behavior explains why your analyzes were criticized by your colleagues in America. I think you spent too much time in Thailand. And until today you have not learned that to analyze facts, behaviors, policies it is necessary to know the facts, the causes, the interrelationships. Or his verbiage will be no more than preconceptions. "Mr. Race is at least consistent in ignoring the facts." (The New York Review) I have 8,906 files with 750 MB of evidence against ISPs, evidence of fascist, psychotic and dishonest behavior from owners and ISP staff - evidence of abuse against humanity. Collected for three years. So, my dear, do not ignore the facts. > analysis based on evidence Do not dare say that this group uses evidence and I complain without proof. Whenever I tried to show types of abuse with evidence, they were censored. See how long this group exists and tell me if the abuse on the internet has had any reduction. This group exists to give a certain seriousness to the system that is rotten from so RIPE and dishonest. This group exists to ensure the permanence of the current status quo. After all are only 473 billion spam PER DAY. > you use the word 'fascist' which has a precise meaning in political science apparently as some generalized condemnation. > Psychopathy again has a precise definition in its field which you apparently don't know. Only you use this words with "a precise meaning in political science". For you, fascist must be a member of an undemocratic, authoritarian political regime centered on the figure of a dictator, right? Dude, you're still in your '50s America, a naive and prosperous society. I'll tell you a "novelty": the word fascist has synonyms ? authoritarian, totalitarian, autocratic, extreme right-winger, Nazi, blackshirt... And, if you are a psychopath or sociopath, you will be preferred to a CEO position. Why? The sociopath feels no empathy for people, or by family members. This is the professional that shareholders want. He will cheat, lie, deceive and steal millions of people without remorse. I do not need to give you examples, do I? And they are all REFINED PEOPLE par excellence. And people like you, Jeffrey, will always extend the red carpet to them. What counts is appearance and hypocrisy. This is basic sociology. I hope it is helpful to this group. > If you can limit your future contributions to the subject and the expectations of this group I am sure our colleagues will be happy to have you with us. My cultural and humanistic education (architect), my sense of justice, my duty as a citizen, my responsibility to my fellow citizens, prevent me from limiting myself to the expectations of this group. I want to put my head on the pillow and sleep, as always. I'll give you some advice Jeffrey, do not try to be sarcastic. Sarcasm is for smart people. By the way Jeffrey, your text is fraught with abuse and insult, ask Andre. In the first paragraph you called me inappropriate. In the second, ignorant. On the third, rude. In the fourth, violator of norms. Fifth, you tried to be sarcastic with my supposed inadequacy. And in the sixth, you sent me away. Who gave you the right to address me in this way? You're too arrogant. You act like a bastard with the appearance of REFINED PEOPLE. The fact that you insult me by using the REFINED PEOPLE technique does not give you the exemption you intend. It just ranks you as hypocritical. Your concept of morality and good manners is unworthy and rotten. It is based on appearance and hypocrisy. If I had a time machine I would send you to your dear 50's America. With love from 1950s Marilson From: anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 9:00 AM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 63, Issue 8 Send anti-abuse-wg mailing list submissions to anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net You can reach the person managing the list at anti-abuse-wg-owner(a)ripe.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of anti-abuse-wg digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Language on List (ox) 2. Re: Language on List (Brian Nisbet) 3. Draft Minutes: RIPE73 AA-WG Meeting (Brian Nisbet) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 07:27:05 +0200 From: ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> To: "Jeffrey Race" <jrace(a)attglobal.net> Cc: "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Language on List Message-ID: <mailman.2.1486119602.29152.anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 21:24:10 -0500 "Jeffrey Race" <jrace(a)attglobal.net> wrote: <snip> > define yourself as refined or coarse. Coarse people > have fewer life opportunities because they are viewed as > inconsiderate of refined persons (who mostly control the > worlds institutions). > Goes back again to the 'definition of abuse' What is abuse? I could argue that Jeffrey Race posting about "refined persons" controlling "coarse persons" is abuse in itself. The "slavery" mentality (fits in with the extremely offensive and very sexist "Ladies & Gentlemen") - slavery plantations in the USA south much? You do realize that some of us has worked, seen and dealt with aberrations of atrocities so offensive as to cause severe stress (for those among us that are not sociopaths) > This is basic sociology. I hope it is helpful to my fellow > list members. > Jeffrey Race > If you are completely honest with your self, admit that there are other tenets of basic sociology that you are ignoring in your generalized statement. And again, pointing out that "refined people" control the world, is not helpful at all. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 08:53:36 +0000 From: Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie> To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Language on List Message-ID: <6d5b4e65-f23d-9f2f-3729-dda7e4a01dda(a)heanet.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Folks, Really, none of this is useful or in any way related to network abuse. Thanks, Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet, Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin 1 Registered in Ireland, no 275301 tel: +35316609040 fax: +35316603666 web: http://www.heanet.ie/ On 03/02/2017 05:27, ox wrote: > On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 21:24:10 -0500 > "Jeffrey Race" <jrace(a)attglobal.net> wrote: > <snip> >> define yourself as refined or coarse. Coarse people >> have fewer life opportunities because they are viewed as >> inconsiderate of refined persons (who mostly control the >> worlds institutions). >> > Goes back again to the 'definition of abuse' What is abuse? > > I could argue that Jeffrey Race posting about "refined persons" > controlling "coarse persons" is abuse in itself. > > The "slavery" mentality (fits in with the extremely offensive and > very sexist "Ladies & Gentlemen") - slavery plantations in the USA > south much? > > You do realize that some of us has worked, seen and dealt with > aberrations of atrocities so offensive as to cause severe stress (for > those among us that are not sociopaths) > >> This is basic sociology. I hope it is helpful to my fellow >> list members. >> Jeffrey Race >> > If you are completely honest with your self, admit that there are other tenets > of basic sociology that you are ignoring in your generalized statement. > > And again, pointing out that "refined people" control the world, is not > helpful at all. > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 08:54:44 +0000 From: Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie> To: "'anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net'" <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Subject: [anti-abuse-wg] Draft Minutes: RIPE73 AA-WG Meeting Message-ID: <a0d87d0c-5599-202f-7567-e09d0ce44a99(a)heanet.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Colleagues, I've attached the draft minutes, lovingly prepared by the RIPE NCC, from our last meeting in Madrid. If you have any comments or corrections, please let me know. Brian -- Brian Nisbet, Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin 1 Registered in Ireland, no 275301 tel: +35316609040 fax: +35316603666 web: http://www.heanet.ie/

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 63, Issue 8
by Marilson 04 Feb '17

04 Feb '17

Tell me, are you open to criticism or are cowards. > Really, none of this is useful or in any way related to network abuse. That phrase would only make sense if it were said before distilling your poison. If it were said before sending me away politely. You could say, hey man, you are not welcome here, go away. Or you can say this "politely" as you did, but it's the same thing. What you call politeness is, in fact, hypocrisy. It is the acts that qualify people, not what they write. > This is a list to discuss, in a professional manner, ways to deal, via technology, policy or other methods, with abuse on the Internet. It is what you have been doing for three years (?) Without any consequence or reduction of abuse to the internet user. > Thankfully this is what the vast, vast majority of people on this list do. The vast, vast majority of people on this list represent ISPs – they are fox taking care of henhouse. > It is not a place to attack others I've been attacked several times, as I am now, and no one says shit. > It's a place to work together, to find common ground and to reach consensus There was always consensus in this pro-abuse-wg. > It is also not a place to directly report abuse. The directly report abuse shows how and who is practicing abuse. But you're right. This is useless information because the goal is not to outlaw the criminal actions of ISPs, but rather to guarantee the billing that this criminal attitude achieves. > If you aren't here for that, then I suggest you go somewhere else on the Internet. This is the third time you've sent me away. Here, where the main perpetrators of Internet abuse are protected, is the right place. If you knew for whom I send hidden copy you would not be so comfortable in your easy speech. Mr. Jeffrey Race, most members of this group “do not adopt revolutionary strategies not because they are too stupid to do so but because it is contrary to their interests.” Jeffrey, do you want deny this affirmation for the second time? Remember that? 1973? You decided to judge me without knowing anything at all about me. Perhaps this kind of behavior explains why your analyzes were criticized by your colleagues in America. I think you spent too much time in Thailand. And until today you have not learned that to analyze facts, behaviors, policies it is necessary to know the facts, the causes, the interrelationships. Or his verbiage will be no more than preconceptions. "Mr. Race is at least consistent in ignoring the facts." (The New York Review) I have 8,906 files with 750 MB of evidence against ISPs, evidence of fascist, psychotic and dishonest behavior from owners and ISP staff - evidence of abuse against humanity. Collected for three years. So, my dear, do not ignore the facts. > analysis based on evidence Do not dare say that this group uses evidence and I complain without proof. Whenever I tried to show types of abuse with evidence, they were censored. See how long this group exists and tell me if the abuse on the internet has had any reduction. This group exists to give a certain seriousness to the system that is rotten from so RIPE and dishonest. This group exists to ensure the permanence of the current status quo. After all are only 473 billion spam PER DAY. > you use the word 'fascist' which has a precise meaning in political science apparently as some generalized condemnation. > Psychopathy again has a precise definition in its field which you apparently don't know. Only you use this words with "a precise meaning in political science". For you, fascist must be a member of an undemocratic, authoritarian political regime centered on the figure of a dictator, right? Dude, you're still in your '50s America, a naive and prosperous society. I'll tell you a "novelty": the word fascist has synonyms – authoritarian, totalitarian, autocratic, extreme right-winger, Nazi, blackshirt... And, if you are a psychopath or sociopath, you will be preferred to a CEO position. Why? The sociopath feels no empathy for people, or by family members. This is the professional that shareholders want. He will cheat, lie, deceive and steal millions of people without remorse. I do not need to give you examples, do I? And they are all REFINED PEOPLE par excellence. And people like you, Jeffrey, will always extend the red carpet to them. What counts is appearance and hypocrisy. This is basic sociology. I hope it is helpful to this group. > If you can limit your future contributions to the subject and the expectations of this group I am sure our colleagues will be happy to have you with us. My cultural and humanistic education (architect), my sense of justice, my duty as a citizen, my responsibility to my fellow citizens, prevent me from limiting myself to the expectations of this group. I want to put my head on the pillow and sleep, as always. I'll give you some advice Jeffrey, do not try to be sarcastic. Sarcasm is for smart people. By the way Jeffrey, your text is fraught with abuse and insult, ask Andre. In the first paragraph you called me inappropriate. In the second, ignorant. On the third, rude. In the fourth, violator of norms. Fifth, you tried to be sarcastic with my supposed inadequacy. And in the sixth, you sent me away. Who gave you the right to address me in this way? You're too arrogant. You act like a bastard with the appearance of REFINED PEOPLE. The fact that you insult me by using the REFINED PEOPLE technique does not give you the exemption you intend. It just ranks you as hypocritical. Your concept of morality and good manners is unworthy and rotten. It is based on appearance and hypocrisy. If I had a time machine I would send you to your dear 50's America. With love from 1950s Marilson From: anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 9:00 AM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 63, Issue 8 Send anti-abuse-wg mailing list submissions to anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net You can reach the person managing the list at anti-abuse-wg-owner(a)ripe.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of anti-abuse-wg digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Language on List (ox) 2. Re: Language on List (Brian Nisbet) 3. Draft Minutes: RIPE73 AA-WG Meeting (Brian Nisbet) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 07:27:05 +0200 From: ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> To: "Jeffrey Race" <jrace(a)attglobal.net> Cc: "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Language on List Message-ID: <mailman.2.1486119602.29152.anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 21:24:10 -0500 "Jeffrey Race" <jrace(a)attglobal.net> wrote: <snip> > define yourself as refined or coarse. Coarse people > have fewer life opportunities because they are viewed as > inconsiderate of refined persons (who mostly control the > worlds institutions). > Goes back again to the 'definition of abuse' What is abuse? I could argue that Jeffrey Race posting about "refined persons" controlling "coarse persons" is abuse in itself. The "slavery" mentality (fits in with the extremely offensive and very sexist "Ladies & Gentlemen") - slavery plantations in the USA south much? You do realize that some of us has worked, seen and dealt with aberrations of atrocities so offensive as to cause severe stress (for those among us that are not sociopaths) > This is basic sociology. I hope it is helpful to my fellow > list members. > Jeffrey Race > If you are completely honest with your self, admit that there are other tenets of basic sociology that you are ignoring in your generalized statement. And again, pointing out that "refined people" control the world, is not helpful at all. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 08:53:36 +0000 From: Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie> To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Language on List Message-ID: <6d5b4e65-f23d-9f2f-3729-dda7e4a01dda(a)heanet.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Folks, Really, none of this is useful or in any way related to network abuse. Thanks, Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet, Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin 1 Registered in Ireland, no 275301 tel: +35316609040 fax: +35316603666 web: http://www.heanet.ie/ On 03/02/2017 05:27, ox wrote: > On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 21:24:10 -0500 > "Jeffrey Race" <jrace(a)attglobal.net> wrote: > <snip> >> define yourself as refined or coarse. Coarse people >> have fewer life opportunities because they are viewed as >> inconsiderate of refined persons (who mostly control the >> worlds institutions). >> > Goes back again to the 'definition of abuse' What is abuse? > > I could argue that Jeffrey Race posting about "refined persons" > controlling "coarse persons" is abuse in itself. > > The "slavery" mentality (fits in with the extremely offensive and > very sexist "Ladies & Gentlemen") - slavery plantations in the USA > south much? > > You do realize that some of us has worked, seen and dealt with > aberrations of atrocities so offensive as to cause severe stress (for > those among us that are not sociopaths) > >> This is basic sociology. I hope it is helpful to my fellow >> list members. >> Jeffrey Race >> > If you are completely honest with your self, admit that there are other tenets > of basic sociology that you are ignoring in your generalized statement. > > And again, pointing out that "refined people" control the world, is not > helpful at all. > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 08:54:44 +0000 From: Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie> To: "'anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net'" <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Subject: [anti-abuse-wg] Draft Minutes: RIPE73 AA-WG Meeting Message-ID: <a0d87d0c-5599-202f-7567-e09d0ce44a99(a)heanet.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Colleagues, I've attached the draft minutes, lovingly prepared by the RIPE NCC, from our last meeting in Madrid. If you have any comments or corrections, please let me know. Brian -- Brian Nisbet, Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin 1 Registered in Ireland, no 275301 tel: +35316609040 fax: +35316603666 web: http://www.heanet.ie/

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Language on List
by Jeffrey Race 03 Feb '17

03 Feb '17

On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:08:44 +0200, ox wrote: >then again, I may be very wrong - so help me out :) The universal rule of ladies and gentlemen is to avoid giving offense. So one does not discuss or use references (unless in a professional context e.g. doctor) to excretion or sexual behavior. One avoids any negative references to other persons and to political or religious beliefs. Those are good practices for this list. So excluding crap and merde which are offensive words. Re: "generalised swearing. It's a part of modern language" -- that's a culture-specific interpretation. Such behavior doesn't occur in most of the world and it never occurred when I was growing up in 1950s America; then I went abroad for 45 years and coming back to America smutty language is indeed widespread. It's not 'modern': it's a degenerate phenomenon of certain cultures. It's unknown in much of the world. It's repugnant to refined sensibilities. Behaving this way doesn't betoken one's "modernity" -- it betoken's one's personal coarseness. Jeffrey Race

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Draft Minutes: RIPE73 AA-WG Meeting
by Brian Nisbet 03 Feb '17

03 Feb '17

Colleagues, I've attached the draft minutes, lovingly prepared by the RIPE NCC, from our last meeting in Madrid. If you have any comments or corrections, please let me know. Brian -- Brian Nisbet, Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin 1 Registered in Ireland, no 275301 tel: +35316609040 fax: +35316603666 web: http://www.heanet.ie/

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AA-WG List Discussion & Etiquette
by Brian Nisbet 02 Feb '17

02 Feb '17

Colleagues, It is a great pity that I feel I have to send a third mail in as many days. This is a list to discuss, in a professional manner, ways to deal, via technology, policy or other methods, with abuse on the Internet. Thankfully this is what the vast, vast majority of people on this list do. It is not a place to attack others or to repeat the same accusations over and over. It's a place to work together, to find common ground and to reach consensus on the best way forward. It is also not a place to directly report abuse. This WG cannot act directly against anyone, nor should it be able to. That is for other bodies. This does not mean that we cannot comment on other organisations or actions when they are abusing the Internet, but we can do so in a reasonable and professional fashion. If you aren't here for that, then I suggest you go somewhere else on the Internet. There are many places that will cater to your needs. I also realise that there are different interpretations of reasonable and professional, but I think even with some very wide bands some recent contributions have strayed well into unacceptable territory. I know there are people who feel Tobias and I are censoring them or picking sides or some such thing. This is not the case. The requirements don't vary depending on who you are. This is all about what you do or say either on this list or at a physical meeting of the Working Group. Everyone is free to leave this list whenever they wish, but I would greatly prefer if people stayed and contributed in the manner I have described above. As always, feel free to contact Tobias and I on aa-wg-chair(a)ripe.net to discuss this or other matters. I realise that not everyone on the list is a native English speaker, so if anything I have written is unclear, I apologise, I would be more than happy to talk directly and remove any confusion. I very much hope that we can now move on to other topics, or even return to the substantive part of the current one. Thank you, Brian -- Brian Nisbet, Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin 1 Registered in Ireland, no 275301 tel: +35316609040 fax: +35316603666 web: http://www.heanet.ie/

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RBL Discussion Update
by Marilson 02 Feb '17

02 Feb '17

According Brian Nisbet the Anti-Abuse WG welcomes a free exchange of ideas and opinions, it does not welcome PERSONAL abuse OF ANY KIND. I was alerted by a WG member that my comments are not being posted. There are censors deciding what can be commented. I would not be surprised by fascist attitudes. I see this problem as follows: if you don't want me to make comments, cancel my register. I don't want to waste my time writing comments in a language I do not master. If this is not personal abuse what would it be? Fascism? Arrogance? Psychopathy? I usually use generalized swearing against companies and their representatives when my rights are not respected. WITH EVIDENCE OF ILLICIT ACTS. If this bothers you, do not be hypocrites by saying “I have little or no problem with generalised swearing.” Marilson Never so few done so much harm to so many. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Marilson Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:02 AM To: HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker Cc: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 62, Issue 33 My little chit-chat?!? I have reported with evidence and detailed reports explaining the dirty economic and financial motives of the criminal use that all these companies, quoted by you, and hundreds of others, make of their tools, which were developed with a single goal, cheat to increase profit. The ends justifying the means. The criminal and exacerbated profit at the expense of the population of the planet. The absolute absence of good ethics and decency practiced by sociopaths who have the preference to occupy the positions of CEO. HSBC, Volkswagen and Mitsubishi are the picture of this economy where you should cheat, just try not to get caught. And I've been doing this every day for three years. Is your 20k mails in 5 minutes also seen as spam by the top spammers? Gmail Google, The Godfather, has a habit of returning my complaints of spam and scams as spam. And whenever it happens I divulge the fact to the main communications channels and related institutions. I never post a complaint with links enabled, neither in the detail of the complaint nor in the header or in the text of the pasted message. That is it Marilson Never so few done so much harm to so many. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 31, 2017 HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker wrote: just try to use SMTP for something serious, other than your little chit-chat and you'll quickly see exactly -why- it's dead. oh yeah. your invoice-sending-run of 20k mails in 5 minutes is also seen as spam by the largest receiving entities: yahoo, hotmail, gmail. despite it not only being -legal- but legally mandatory to send invoices. lolol ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 31, 2017 Marilson wrote: Now we are speaking the same language (with my English). I will not agree with the reasons for your refusal to cancel contracts because I am a layperson. For me it's something that came from Alpha Centaur after traveling 26 years at the speed of light. I'm just an architect. But I can consider it quite probable considering the behavior that repeats itself in such 'entities' as, Microsoft, Amazon, Google, etc. That is not different of the criation of storage tool called S3 or Azure or Google Drive. They provide the tools for committing crimes, they hide the identity of the criminal, and say they are not responsible for the acts of your customers. Ionesco, father of the theater of the absurd, should be moving in the grave. They are continuously refining their systems to protect and hide their criminal customers to increase the internet traffic. That was always the goal, regardless of the harm caused to the planet's population. They act above the law with the blessing of their government. God save the laissez faire. Silicon Valley corporations no longer know where to store their trillions of dollars. They are building underground structures to protect themselves. They will probably bury gold and diamonds, or graphene and antimatter. Just do not know where they will spend if the hecatomb they are dreading happening. 2017 is a critical year for them. ;) Good for them! Marilson Never so few done so much harm to so many. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 31, 2017 HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker wrote: you seem to consider broken old buggy code and badly thought out protocols of the past an 'unchangable fact'... to me, cooking up something like smtp, is just a matter of some coffee and a few hours of typing... and that little issue with the oob messages on wintendo could have been solved in less than a minute. instead microsoft let it continue to go on for many years... (like all their other virus bullshit - you'd almost start to think the anti-virus industry is paying them to let those bugs continue to exists so more virusses can be created for them ;) we're not gonna disconnect anyone's internet just because 'some people' refuse to just let dead and broken protocols and software be dead (or fix them up a little). any line of code wasted on dnsbls or harrassing isps, won't solve the problem. a problem that to me is virtually non-existant as i barely use smtp anyway. the 1990s are over, there is plenty of better stuff out there... just use that. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 31, 2017 Marilson wrote: Hey pal, you're confusing me with Andre. But I'm not your friend either. I am a ISP hunter because I do not consider the spammers and scammers the real responsible for that naughtiness. And you are the incontestable proof of what I am saying: > 'if your computer crashes when someone sends TCP OOB messages to it on port 139 i think it was, go fix your operating system, don't go around demanding that we terminate contracts with anyone that gets the great idea to send you such packets. lol.' I will never 'turned on Spamhaus'. Do you know why? After 'turned on Spamcop' (America rules the internet) for a year, and 'turned on Netcraft' (Britain rules the internet) for almost two years, I have learned that they are liars, dishonest, and their real goals are unconfessable. Spamcop cheated on me for a whole year and Netcraft keeps cheating almost every day. Why do I continue using Netcraft? Because every cheating I denounce with evidence and copy for everyone. Inclusive for Anonymous. The irony is that I spam when I report it, but I give them viral advertising. You have my sympathy towards Spamhaus but you are my enemy as long as you find it funny that your criminal client invades and infects my computer. It is your right not to terminate a contract but will be complicit in the crime. And that could cost you another 55 days like those in Spain. That is all, pal! Marilson Never so few done so much harm to so many. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 31, 2017 HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker wrote: be that as it may but as long as 'some' try to get MY networks/companies depeered "because" we don't terminate clients when they tell us to, by abusing their unsollicited influence over delivery to YOUR mail as a means of blackmail to obstruct the mail of MY suppliers until they disconnect ME, YOUR mail protocol and it's (more or less) related rbls are a problem to ME. :P now if YOU would have turned on spamhaus YOURSELF that indeed is YOUR choice... however in by far most cases, that's not the case and it's the mail service provider making that choice for all of it's customers. giving spamhaus severe leverage to use as a means of extortion. (and also being blatantly illegal by itself - violates net neutrality). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 21, 2017 Marilson wrote: My horse-drawn cart is mine, not yours. My email is mine, not yours. IS MINE. Only the psychopaths and the arrogant can not understand this truth. They think that everything belongs to them. Follow the rules of email marketing. Be decent. Respect people. PROBLEM SOLVED. ;) Marilson Never so few done so much harm to so many. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 12:35 PM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net ; Marilson ; ox Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RBL Discussion Update we don't adjust the autobahn to safely accomodate your horse drawn cart. same thing. buy a proper vehicle. problem solved. On 31 ينا, 2017 م 02:12, ox wrote: > On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 14:05:12 +0000 > HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker <svenk(a)xs4all.nl> wrote: > > >> as -that- is what all those spamhaus listings (the ones -before- the >> escalations, which are pure and solely blackmail) are -mostly- about: >> trade policy. not spam. not virusses. >> > *yawn* still ranting about Spamhaus... > > Andre >

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 63, Issue 3
by Marilson 02 Feb '17

02 Feb '17

Dear Andre, do not be so severe with my friend Olaf, the Prince of Spam. He is not 'behaving like a spammer', he is a spammer and does not hide it. 'Sending multiple emails, one after the other' is force of habit. :) You can be condescending for two reasons: he is not a hypocrite and is being victimized for his activities. He is paying a high price and reacts with anger (sorry Olaf). But he is paying due his actions. Worry about those who continue to act like greedy psychopaths under the umbrella of RIPE and their governments. Marilson Never so few done so much harm to so many. From: anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 9:00 AM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 63, Issue 3 Send anti-abuse-wg mailing list submissions to anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net You can reach the person managing the list at anti-abuse-wg-owner(a)ripe.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of anti-abuse-wg digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: RBL Discussion Update (ox) 2. Re: Language on List (ox) 3. Re: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 62, Issue 33 (ox) 4. Re: RBL Discussion Update (ox) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 07:10:55 +0200 From: ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RBL Discussion Update Message-ID: <mailman.2.1485946802.31898.anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 14:34:34 +0000 HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker <svenk(a)xs4all.nl> wrote: <snip> > > i don't see 'tv advertisements' as a problem, cuz i never watch tv. > > i don't see 'spam' as a problem, cuz i (barely) never use smtp. > For those that do use smtp, and to identify those isps that refuse to stop abusing others, there needs to be a list. and, if you are an isp, making money from pushing packets, you need to be responsible for what packets you are puching, from child porn to common spam. for someone who do not care, you do rant and rave a lot though. and yes, technology will improve so that horse carts are not on the autobahn, but even when there are no horsecarts on the autobahn you still cannot push child porn or other rubbish on the autobahn as the autobahn has rules for all the cars traveling on it. Andre ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 07:45:24 +0200 From: ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> To: "Jeffrey Race" <jrace(a)attglobal.net> Cc: Jeffrey Race <jrace(a)post.harvard.edu>, "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Language on List Message-ID: <mailman.3.1485946802.31898.anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 09:34:50 -0500 "Jeffrey Race" <jrace(a)attglobal.net> wrote: > > The universal rule of ladies and gentlemen is to avoid giving I take very strong exception to this and on on this list. This type of sexual stereotyping is not only archaic but is extremely offensive to some people. Offensive comments has no place on an abuse workgroup and I demand an unqualified apology from jrace(a)post.harvard.edu Or, barring an apology, I would like jrace(a)post.harvard.edu to agree to self punish: Force yourself to watch two seasons of Bart Simpson (i suggest season 6 and maybe 9...) For the rest of his post, the writer has lost touch with reality and clearly has a higher regard for sensibilities than for communication and the free (OPEN) exchange of ideas. "Helping someone out" does not mean helping them from the side of the ditch into the actual ditch. It similarly does not mean that you should publish your bias and be as offensive as others have been. Then, your reply is pov (point of view - yours) your opinions are not facts... For example, someone else may have the opinion that: Expletives are useful, not only to display relationship and for communicative use but are fun to use! Offense is a choice and although I have understanding of your repressed humanity, a one word response to your post could simply have been "balls" And, speaking for myself, it is humorous when the boss farts by accident in a very formal meeting. What can I say, I am but a course obnoxious shitting and laughing brute. And I laugh at the thought of me, a killer (I eat meat) and my body processing that into energy (most of which is used by my brain) because the reality is so very freaky. I believe the British called my culture "Boors" because we seem so common, unsophisticated and, well "boorish" In truth we have so much ubuntu, so much compassion but we do not like bullshit. I hope that all helped you out (but probably not as Dinosaurs are as dinosaurs do...) Andre > offense. So one does not discuss or use references > (unless in a professional context e.g. doctor) to excretion or > sexual behavior. One avoids any negative references to > other persons and to political or religious beliefs. > > Those are good practices for this list. So excluding crap > and merde which are offensive words. > > Re: "generalised swearing. It's a part of modern language" -- > that's a culture-specific interpretation. Such behavior > doesn't occur in most of the world and it never occurred > when I was growing up in 1950s America; then > I went abroad for 45 years and coming back to America > smutty language is indeed widespread. It's not 'modern': > it's a degenerate phenomenon of certain cultures. It's > unknown in much of the world. It's repugnant to refined > sensibilities. Behaving this way doesn't betoken one's > "modernity" -- it betoken's one's personal coarseness. > > Jeffrey Race > > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 08:37:06 +0200 From: ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 62, Issue 33 Message-ID: <mailman.4.1485946802.31898.anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 23:08:19 +0000 HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker <svenk(a)xs4all.nl> wrote: > smtp falls into the same catagory as telex, faxes, morse code, etc. > 'has been methods of communications'. whereas telex and faxes and do you think that if you say the same thing over and over and over, it is going to make it true? you have heard from other people (Marilson) as well: smtp is relevant, smtp is important - and the entire reason you are ranting and raving and sending five emails after each other to an abuse work group is smtp Then, you are abusing an abuse workgroup by sending multiple emails, one after the other... You are behaving like a spammer - blasting out multiple emails, one after the other, not waiting for someone to reply to your email, instead firing of three to six extra emails right after each other. What you are doing is not communication, you are simply pumping out the same message over and over and over and you are not even bothering to read replies to respond as you are responding to yourself, multiple times. So, when you reply to yourself, does it feel to you that your point is clearer? I do not even read your emails anymore, and I recall some of them were a useful and did contain good ideas, but it is too much effort to read your replies to yourself and now it is simply repetitive. Like your new thread, complaining about *drumroll* Spamhaus I did not use Spamhaus, but after all your ranting and raving I may actually start using them, they must be doing something worthwhile to draw so much anger. In fact, let me try Spamhaus and give the wg my pov as I do not have a pov about spamhaus atm and maybe the lesson to be learned from HRH Prince Olaf, is to try Spamhaus for myself? Maybe buy some of their commercial products?) Andre ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 12:47:09 +0200 From: ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RBL Discussion Update Message-ID: <mailman.5.1485946802.31898.anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, 1 Feb 2017 10:23:07 +0000 HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker <svenk(a)xs4all.nl> wrote: > On 01 ???, 2017 ? 05:10, ox wrote: > > For those that do use smtp, and to identify those isps that refuse > > to stop abusing others, there needs to be a list. > > > that's all very cute... as long as that 'list of isps' would remain <snip snip> > going 'spamhaus is now listing OUR networks, our sales department > can't send mail to 1/3rd of the world and they demand we disconnect luckily for you, smtp is dead and non important to you - so you can Facebook your clients :) Personally, I do not want emails from people (isps) who enable kiddie porn, spam, phish or other rubbish - so I CHOOSE to use RBLs that I trust and that I know are operated fairly and ethically. If isps want to be paid for pushing packets they need to take responsibility fro what they are pushing (CONTENT) - pushing child pornography, slavery and a whole buch of evil is simply not acceptable. It is not acceptable to say: I push traffic and I do not care what it is or how it is destroying little kids or the lives of innocent people. Andre End of anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 63, Issue 3 ********************************************

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RBL Discussion Update
by ox 01 Feb '17

01 Feb '17

On Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:20:59 +0000 HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker <svenk(a)xs4all.nl> wrote: > "the supermarket on the corner supplies spammers with food, so they > stay alive - they are an accessory to spam being sent - let's make a > blacklist of supermarkets and block their doors" > that, is your argument. right there. completely ignorant of the fact > that the spammers just go to another supermarket in that case. :P yes, you are starting to get it now. this is where modern society is headed :) If my culture or my society does not accept slavery and there is a trusted list where the pro slavery resources are conveniently listed, we can easily DROP. Similarly, if we do not like supermarkets and you host supermarkets, we will DROP everything from you, even if you are the entire USA :) previously you said: > the attached leaked executive order by trump of the USA, nicely > describes our national policy in terms of 'cyber adversaries' as > well. and spamhaus is a cyber adversary. they have firmly established > themselves as a terrorist group in 2013. when they managed to extort > 3 transits in a row into breach of contract, resulting in total > downtime for the national networks of the republic cyberbunker and > all of it's front operations. > they shall be treated as such. no matter -what- the collateral is. > you should make your own policies and clearly publish them somewhere. for example that you are pro slavery, pro kiddie porn, pro terrorism, or whatever (maybe also include a convenient list of your resources, or publish an easy bgp feed, then eveyrone that does not like what your policies are can more easily DROP, instead of having to actually use a third party list :) if you read, right at the bottom of my first post on the RBL thread, you will note that one of the questions were the needs of society for specialized lists. As the Internet is becoming "walled off gardens" of an increasing nationalistic society, civil society still needs to evolve RBL technology. As it stands right now child porn is grouped in with copyright abuse and then there are the strange funding from country intelligence agencies for seemingly innocent projects... So, the question is, do we need to know what RBL or DNSBL (as there are differences in the foundational tech) we are trusting and for what type of listing (or currently, general listing)? In your marketing for Spamhaus, I have to note that they list phish and child porn all simply as Spam, and same: 'network abuse' is what? machine learning bots? (gbbots, nodes or node controllers, or what?) question of course really being, does society need it? (or are we still evolving to it, as in your donkey carts on the autobahn example(s).) There are vast differences in the different types of abuse. To put this in context of your ravings: In your opinion, does Spamhaus need more specialized BGP feeds, more specialized dnsbl, etc. - or are the differences, currently available, adequate? My opinion is that we need (and are ready for) many specialized lists, eg for bots, not just a bot list, but listings of what bots are where (sometimes some bots are in the same place), what would be nice is a control node list, older bots (brute), and all the other nice unicorny things. I also think that many other distinctions in DNSBL, will (or would) be useful. Andre > > > On 01 فبر, 2017 م 01:17, HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker wrote: > > transporting an electrocution device and after that a dead body in > > the trunk of a rented car doesn't make any of that the > > 'responsibility' of either the road network operator nor the car > > rental company. > > > > and that's a good thing. > > > > > > > > On 01 فبر, 2017 م 01:13, HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker wrote: > >> > >> On 01 فبر, 2017 ص 10:47, ox wrote: > >> > >> responsibility fro what they are pushing (CONTENT) - pushing child > >> pornography, slavery and a whole buch of evil is simply not > >> acceptable. > >> > >> all of this is respective to your cultural interpretation. we > >> consider stealing from hostile banks a GREAT thing. > >> arr matey, take the money back! fuck the banks. why help the > >> banks. lol. they never did anything for us... > >> > >> child pornography - in as far as they depict actual rape, should > >> be about as illegal as pictures of a bank robbery or murderscene. > >> - in as far as it's rape in the first fucking place. the > >> definition of a 'child' also is rather vague, in our culture > >> anyone of any age that doesn't have an iq of over 120 is > >> considered either a child or retarded, in yours, maybe not, in > >> others the average life expectancy is 20-30 years and you can't > >> hardly expect them to only consider people 'grown up' and capable > >> of making their own decisions until they are 14/16/18/21/24 by > >> which time they usually already are dead... considering children > >> 'retarded' until they just so happen to be 18 is common in > >> -christian- cultures, not in ours. an 8 year old can perfectly > >> well decide for himself wether he -wants- to work as a porn actor, > >> or not. if they don't know what they want in life by the time they > >> are 6 they -never will-. it's as simple as that. in either case, > >> discriminating against a genetically defined sexual preference > >> group is wrong and when they are looking at porn they are not out > >> there committing rape. making a whole lot of fuzz about some sex, > >> also turns -rape victims- into -murder victims- as murder victims > >> don't talk. the whole 'child porn' and 'rape' thing should not be > >> such a big deal as it is frequently made, after all it's just some > >> fucking sex. so you had a dick up your arse. who cares. get used > >> to it, you'll probably be taxed like a slave all your life which > >> is FAR worse than some sex. nobody is talking about -that-. lol. > >> also one law against rape suffices for all cases of rape, no need > >> to specifically mention children anywhere. it's either rape, or > >> it's not. not linked to 'age'. (yes i'm sorry, even if you grow to > >> be 140 years old, we still don't consider you human if your iq is > >> under 120 - with us, that is not linked to 'age' - we also don't > >> have the christian tendencies to keep our kids stupid and badly > >> informed - our kids drive cars by the time they are 7 and run > >> companies by the time they are 10 - no intention whatsoever to > >> deter them from having sex, looking at porn, etc. that's trying to > >> deter evolution. ;) > >> > >> slavery: a cultural concept. not much difference between the roman > >> empire, and the modern interpretation of the word 'citizen'... the > >> state happily steals more than half of whatever your citizens > >> make, so, they are slaves. it never was abolished, not even in > >> your culture, they just changed the word for it. > >> > >> as for 'content'... NO. none of that is of our concern... we > >> forward packets and if we were to block things or disconnect > >> things there is a whole lot of OTHER THINGS we would block, BEFORE > >> getting to the points you addressed, if -ever-. let's start with > >> the culture pollution by the american 'media' ... hmm yep, let's > >> block that. facebook? google? spy platforms of the enemy. block > >> them as well. etc... all of that -before- even starting to look at > >> 'child pornography'. > >> > >> yes we have had some firewalls in the past... most of them > >> included everything owned by members of the RIAA and MPAA ranging > >> from their propaganda shit to their office networks. things like > >> that are of far higher priority to us than 'childporn'... but we > >> do such things for OUR OWN networks, not the networks we rent out > >> to customers, on those, we don't interfere with content... they > >> can even have port 25 opened if they want to but none of them seem > >> to be in the 'mail business' anyway. lol. > >> > >> now, if we would start to filter everything you and your culture > >> doesn't seem to like we must also do that for everyone else out > >> there... filter american crap for iran, filter falun gong, porn > >> and casinos for china, filter porn for thailand, filter > >> 'everything commercial' for the commies, etc. > >> > >> your cultural interpretations cannot be a reason to disconnect > >> anything. capiche. if you don't wanna see something, don't look at > >> it. d0h. > >> > >>> On Wed, 1 Feb 2017 10:23:07 +0000 > >>> HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker <svenk(a)xs4all.nl> wrote: > >>>> On 01 فبر, 2017 ص 05:10, ox wrote: > >>>>> For those that do use smtp, and to identify those isps that > >>>>> refuse to stop abusing others, there needs to be a list. > >>>>> > >>>> that's all very cute... as long as that 'list of isps' would > >>>> remain > >>> <snip snip> > >>>> going 'spamhaus is now listing OUR networks, our sales department > >>>> can't send mail to 1/3rd of the world and they demand we > >>>> disconnect > >>> luckily for you, smtp is dead and non important to you - so you > >>> can Facebook your clients :) > >>> > >>> Personally, I do not want emails from people (isps) who enable > >>> kiddie porn, spam, phish or other rubbish - so I CHOOSE to use > >>> RBLs that I trust and that I know are operated fairly and > >>> ethically. > >>> > >>> If isps want to be paid for pushing packets they need to take > >>> responsibility fro what they are pushing (CONTENT) - pushing child > >>> pornography, slavery and a whole buch of evil is simply not > >>> acceptable. > >>> > >>> It is not acceptable to say: I push traffic and I do not care > >>> what it is or how it is destroying little kids or the lives of > >>> innocent people. > >>> > >>> Andre > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > >

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RBL Discussion Update
by ox 01 Feb '17

01 Feb '17

On Wed, 1 Feb 2017 12:36:17 +0000 HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker <svenk(a)xs4all.nl> wrote: <snip snip> > 7: their DROP list is a bgp feed to several parties, which results in > UNREACHABILITY between affected networks, without the user's on those > network's consent. examples: stormfront, torrentfreak (and by adding > so, according to their own propaganda, they make public that the isp, > according to them, would run hijacked ranges - not according to > companies house but hey..) > 8: they look at some he.net statistics on % of transit obtained from > which parties, and then conclude that the larger ones of those are > subject to the same harrassment until they turn the bgp session of. > 9: list bgp session ip of transit carriers and larger peers > 10: lists /24 that session ip is in > 11: lists the network of their office if they can find it > 12: lists everything that transit has > calling the transit carriers 'a crime gang /spammers /spam > supporters' along the way, in links in the bounced mails (TXT record > in their dnsbl botnet) > nothing you have said changes: * it is still a free choice to use any list * lists are only as powerful as the trust given * and, lists are needed (as you have also agreed) Your problem is with a specific list. And you could have made any/your case with one or two paragraphs, and by adding an actual example, etc. Even if you do that, at this point, it will be mostly ignored as noise. As it stands now, you look like a marketer for Spamhaus... - Have you noticed that nobody from Spamhaus is even saying anything? Your behavior and posts are great publicity for them. Andre > -------------------------- > > as you can see there is a SLIIIIGHHT difference between a normal > dnsbl, and terrorist organisation spamhaus. i haven't noticed any of > the other 110's -existance- let alone have been listed on any of them > (That i noticed) over the past 20 years or so. it's only when we > actively went looking that it turned out that there were some more of > those things. none of which ever posed a problem to us. > > now. it's quite simple, spamhaus sabotages our connectivity, we > sabotage theirs. and we don't give a flying fuck if half the internet > goes down with that. simple ay. > > that's the deal. > > > On 01 فبر, 2017 م 12:24, HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker wrote: > > as stated... you can use those rbls however much you like. however. > > the influence of said rbls into the functioning of protocols can > > never be used to -force- into breach of contracts, like spamhaus > > does. by listing irrelevant-to-the-alledged-abuse SUPPLIERS > > > > (listing the isp itself already falls under that catagory, but as > > we stated before, we don't care about -that-. things might look > > different with other carriers that -do- use email however ;) > > > > it's not the 'listing' that caused spamhaus to be ddossed off the > > surface of the planet, it was -them- blackmailing our SUPPLIERS. > > namely, at that time, tata communications, t-net/tiscali, and they > > attempted it with kpn. before that: a2b, grafix, level3, and a > > whole list of others over a period of, ehm well as long as spamhaus > > has been around. > > > > we don't exactly plan on spending a week in a hotel near some > > transit pop, pay interconnect fees, and setup fees, every fucking > > time spamhaus decides to blackmail one of our suppliers, capiche? > > > > they can list the ranges that are part of -our- network, we don't > > give a shit, their users won't get any mail from us, that isn't > > being sent anyway so who cares. > > > > listing the networks the mailservers of the sales departments of > > multinational corporations that provide IP transit, in order to > > illegally blackmail them into breach of contract (which they > > usually do or else spamhaus slanders them as 'spam supporters' + > > they can't send mail, and -they do- use smtp) is -well beyond- the > > intended uses and purposes of a dnsbl. > > > > > > > > On 01 فبر, 2017 ص 10:47, ox wrote: > >> On Wed, 1 Feb 2017 10:23:07 +0000 > >> HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker <svenk(a)xs4all.nl> wrote: > >>> On 01 فبر, 2017 ص 05:10, ox wrote: > >>>> For those that do use smtp, and to identify those isps that > >>>> refuse to stop abusing others, there needs to be a list. > >>>> > >>> that's all very cute... as long as that 'list of isps' would > >>> remain > >> <snip snip> > >>> going 'spamhaus is now listing OUR networks, our sales department > >>> can't send mail to 1/3rd of the world and they demand we > >>> disconnect > >> luckily for you, smtp is dead and non important to you - so you can > >> Facebook your clients :) > >> > >> Personally, I do not want emails from people (isps) who enable > >> kiddie porn, spam, phish or other rubbish - so I CHOOSE to use RBLs > >> that I trust and that I know are operated fairly and ethically. > >> > >> If isps want to be paid for pushing packets they need to take > >> responsibility fro what they are pushing (CONTENT) - pushing child > >> pornography, slavery and a whole buch of evil is simply not > >> acceptable. > >> > >> It is not acceptable to say: I push traffic and I do not care what > >> it is or how it is destroying little kids or the lives of innocent > >> people. > >> > >> Andre > >> > >> > > >

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RBL Discussion Update
by ox 01 Feb '17

01 Feb '17

On Wed, 1 Feb 2017 12:24:27 +0000 HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker <svenk(a)xs4all.nl> wrote: > as stated... you can use those rbls however much you like. however. > the influence of said rbls into the functioning of protocols can > never be used to -force- into breach of contracts, like spamhaus > does. by listing irrelevant-to-the-alledged-abuse SUPPLIERS > iI already understood what you are saying twenty? of your posts ago do you get that you are still posting about Spamhaus? And that you are just saying the same thing over and over? did you get it that anyone can make a list of anyone and that anyone has the freedom to decide to trust anyone - and that all your posts and ddos talk simply wants to make many buy whatever Spamhaus is selling (as in start giving them money) so, are you actually working for Spamhaus? - you are doing a brilliant job of selling the brand :) If you are really anti Spamhaus, you should have simply posted one small paragraph, detailing your issue and then waited for others to either agree, disagree or ask you questions... But, as it is, you are probably a Spamhaus marketing agent :) Andre > (listing the isp itself already falls under that catagory, but as we > stated before, we don't care about -that-. things might look > different with other carriers that -do- use email however ;) > > it's not the 'listing' that caused spamhaus to be ddossed off the > surface of the planet, it was -them- blackmailing our SUPPLIERS. > namely, at that time, tata communications, t-net/tiscali, and they > attempted it with kpn. before that: a2b, grafix, level3, and a whole > list of others over a period of, ehm well as long as spamhaus has > been around. > > we don't exactly plan on spending a week in a hotel near some transit > pop, pay interconnect fees, and setup fees, every fucking time > spamhaus decides to blackmail one of our suppliers, capiche? > > they can list the ranges that are part of -our- network, we don't > give a shit, their users won't get any mail from us, that isn't being > sent anyway so who cares. > > listing the networks the mailservers of the sales departments of > multinational corporations that provide IP transit, in order to > illegally blackmail them into breach of contract (which they usually > do or else spamhaus slanders them as 'spam supporters' + they can't > send mail, and -they do- use smtp) is -well beyond- the intended uses > and purposes of a dnsbl. > > > > On 01 فبر, 2017 ص 10:47, ox wrote: > > On Wed, 1 Feb 2017 10:23:07 +0000 > > HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker <svenk(a)xs4all.nl> wrote: > >> On 01 فبر, 2017 ص 05:10, ox wrote: > >>> For those that do use smtp, and to identify those isps that refuse > >>> to stop abusing others, there needs to be a list. > >>> > >> that's all very cute... as long as that 'list of isps' would remain > > <snip snip> > >> going 'spamhaus is now listing OUR networks, our sales department > >> can't send mail to 1/3rd of the world and they demand we disconnect > > luckily for you, smtp is dead and non important to you - so you can > > Facebook your clients :) > > > > Personally, I do not want emails from people (isps) who enable > > kiddie porn, spam, phish or other rubbish - so I CHOOSE to use RBLs > > that I trust and that I know are operated fairly and ethically. > > > > If isps want to be paid for pushing packets they need to take > > responsibility fro what they are pushing (CONTENT) - pushing child > > pornography, slavery and a whole buch of evil is simply not > > acceptable. > > > > It is not acceptable to say: I push traffic and I do not care what > > it is or how it is destroying little kids or the lives of innocent > > people. > > > > Andre > > > > >

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RBL Discussion Update
by ox 01 Feb '17

01 Feb '17

On Wed, 1 Feb 2017 10:23:07 +0000 HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker <svenk(a)xs4all.nl> wrote: > On 01 فبر, 2017 ص 05:10, ox wrote: > > For those that do use smtp, and to identify those isps that refuse > > to stop abusing others, there needs to be a list. > > > that's all very cute... as long as that 'list of isps' would remain <snip snip> > going 'spamhaus is now listing OUR networks, our sales department > can't send mail to 1/3rd of the world and they demand we disconnect luckily for you, smtp is dead and non important to you - so you can Facebook your clients :) Personally, I do not want emails from people (isps) who enable kiddie porn, spam, phish or other rubbish - so I CHOOSE to use RBLs that I trust and that I know are operated fairly and ethically. If isps want to be paid for pushing packets they need to take responsibility fro what they are pushing (CONTENT) - pushing child pornography, slavery and a whole buch of evil is simply not acceptable. It is not acceptable to say: I push traffic and I do not care what it is or how it is destroying little kids or the lives of innocent people. Andre

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 62, Issue 33
by ox 01 Feb '17

01 Feb '17

On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 23:08:19 +0000 HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker <svenk(a)xs4all.nl> wrote: > smtp falls into the same catagory as telex, faxes, morse code, etc. > 'has been methods of communications'. whereas telex and faxes and do you think that if you say the same thing over and over and over, it is going to make it true? you have heard from other people (Marilson) as well: smtp is relevant, smtp is important - and the entire reason you are ranting and raving and sending five emails after each other to an abuse work group is smtp Then, you are abusing an abuse workgroup by sending multiple emails, one after the other... You are behaving like a spammer - blasting out multiple emails, one after the other, not waiting for someone to reply to your email, instead firing of three to six extra emails right after each other. What you are doing is not communication, you are simply pumping out the same message over and over and over and you are not even bothering to read replies to respond as you are responding to yourself, multiple times. So, when you reply to yourself, does it feel to you that your point is clearer? I do not even read your emails anymore, and I recall some of them were a useful and did contain good ideas, but it is too much effort to read your replies to yourself and now it is simply repetitive. Like your new thread, complaining about *drumroll* Spamhaus I did not use Spamhaus, but after all your ranting and raving I may actually start using them, they must be doing something worthwhile to draw so much anger. In fact, let me try Spamhaus and give the wg my pov as I do not have a pov about spamhaus atm and maybe the lesson to be learned from HRH Prince Olaf, is to try Spamhaus for myself? Maybe buy some of their commercial products?) Andre

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] RBL Discussion Update
by ox 01 Feb '17

01 Feb '17

On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 14:34:34 +0000 HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker <svenk(a)xs4all.nl> wrote: <snip> > > i don't see 'tv advertisements' as a problem, cuz i never watch tv. > > i don't see 'spam' as a problem, cuz i (barely) never use smtp. > For those that do use smtp, and to identify those isps that refuse to stop abusing others, there needs to be a list. and, if you are an isp, making money from pushing packets, you need to be responsible for what packets you are puching, from child porn to common spam. for someone who do not care, you do rant and rave a lot though. and yes, technology will improve so that horse carts are not on the autobahn, but even when there are no horsecarts on the autobahn you still cannot push child porn or other rubbish on the autobahn as the autobahn has rules for all the cars traveling on it. Andre

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 62, Issue 33
by Marilson 01 Feb '17

01 Feb '17

My little chit-chat?!? I have reported with evidence and detailed reports explaining the dirty economic and financial motives of the criminal use that all these companies, quoted by you, and hundreds of others, make of their tools, which were developed with a single goal, cheat to increase profit. The ends justifying the means. The criminal and exacerbated profit at the expense of the population of the planet. The absolute absence of good ethics and decency practiced by sociopaths who have the preference to occupy the positions of CEO. HSBC, Volkswagen and Mitsubishi are the picture of this economy where you should cheat, just try not to get caught. And I've been doing this every day for three years. Is your 20k mails in 5 minutes also seen as spam by the top spammers? Gmail Google, The Godfather, has a habit of returning my complaints of spam and scams as spam. And whenever it happens I divulge the fact to the main communications channels and related institutions. I never post a complaint with links enabled, neither in the detail of the complaint nor in the header or in the text of the pasted message. That is it Marilson Never so few done so much harm to so many. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 8:05 PM To: Marilson ; anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Cc: andre(a)ox.co.za Subject: Re: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 62, Issue 33 just try to use SMTP for something serious, other than your little chit-chat and you'll quickly see exactly -why- it's dead. oh yeah. your invoice-sending-run of 20k mails in 5 minutes is also seen as spam by the largest receiving entities: yahoo, hotmail, gmail. despite it not only being -legal- but legally mandatory to send invoices. lolol. On 31 ينا, 2017 م 09:43, Marilson wrote: We will update the number of emails practiced these days: Source: Cisco http://www.senderbase.org/static/spam/#tab=0 AVERAGE DAILY VOLUME (BILLIONS) – Last Month Spam 473.62 85.56% Legitimate 79.85 14.43% Malware 0.0557 0.0101% 473 billion spam PER DAY in last Month. 172 trillions per year. Mamma mia! It's a lot, but a lot of money! It is clear, clear as crystal, because some ISPs refuse to cancel the contract even knowing that his customer is a felon with convictions in court, proven swindler, known scammer... And several times retaliate because they do not support complaints. Could anyone tell me what the revenue is for hosting and sending 172 trillions of spam per year? Do not be shy, nobody will call you greedy. Marilson Never so few done so much harm to so many. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:24 AM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 62, Issue 33 Send anti-abuse-wg mailing list submissions to anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net You can reach the person managing the list at anti-abuse-wg-owner(a)ripe.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of anti-abuse-wg digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RBL Discussion Update (Brian Nisbet) 2. Re: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 62, Issue 28 (Marilson) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2017 12:40:00 +0000 From: Brian Nisbet mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie To: mailto:'anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net' mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Subject: [anti-abuse-wg] RBL Discussion Update Message-ID: mailto:b78a58a0-0de9-53a4-4015-caa906337625@heanet.ie Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Ok folks... The RBL Policy discussion is interesting, but we've gone wildly off track and it has become focused, unfortunately, on one provider. I'm not going to tell anyone what to think of Spamhaus, but this conversation is not the right place to go on specifically about them. I think the relevant opinions have been aired and nobody is going to be convinced one way or the other. If there is more discussion of general RBL Policy and whether bans should be longer/shorter/whatever or the other points Andre raised, great. If you aren't talking about this, please don't post it here. There are lots of other lists and forums and things on the Internet where you can post away. Thanks, Brian -- Brian Nisbet, Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin 1 Registered in Ireland, no 275301 tel: +35316609040 fax: +35316603666 web: http://www.heanet.ie/ ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:23:55 -0200 From: "Marilson" mailto:marilson.mapa@gmail.com To: mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 62, Issue 28 Message-ID: <E24B39EFAF6A483BAE7C62E711605258@xPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Yesterday, Andre wrote: > In 2015, the number of emails sent and received per day total over 205 billion... Andre is underestimating the size of the problem and Olaf, the prince of spam, the demolisher, the man who almost broke the internet, pretends to be unaware: During 2010, about 107 trillion emails were sent around the world. Of that total, 89.1% were spam - this corresponds to an average of 262 billion unwanted messages per day, according to data from Royal Pingdom consultancy, which monitors web traffic. 293 billion emails being 262 billion spam, in 2010. Marilson From: anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 2:21 PM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: anti-abuse-wg Digest, Vol 62, Issue 28 Send anti-abuse-wg mailing list submissions to anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to anti-abuse-wg-request(a)ripe.net You can reach the person managing the list at anti-abuse-wg-owner(a)ripe.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of anti-abuse-wg digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fwd: Re: RBL policy (HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker) 2. Re: Fwd: Re: RBL policy (ox) 3. Re: Fwd: Re: RBL policy (ox) 4. Re: Fwd: Re: RBL policy (HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 13:19:32 +0000 From: HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker mailto:svenk@xs4all.nl To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Fwd: Re: RBL policy Message-ID: mailto:8099bc26-b01b-84e1-2b2e-f5e773ee22f9@xs4all.nl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed as for smtp being alive.. out of 4 billion ips some 200k run an smtp server... still a lot more than ftp (including badly configured printers and security cameras).. but considering it's a protocol that was supposed to run on each and every workstation. it's dead. facebook has more users per second than smtp has mails per year. lol. On 30 ???, 2017 ? 01:13, ox wrote: > On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 13:01:46 +0000 > HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker mailto:svenk@xs4all.nl wrote: >> no not all dnsbls are a problem. none of the other ones block >> non-directly related prefixes as a means of extortion into complete >> breach of contract. there are some 110 of them last time we checked. >> we only were on the 2 operated by spamhaus. :P >> so by far... pretty much all dnsbl's list the ips that originate the >> 'undesired' traffic, which stops it from >> reaching those that use their service, and that's where it ends for >> them... that's perfectly acceptable. >> (as long as it's the actual end user making the decision to use their >> 'filtering' or not) >> > Okay, got it, thank you for that > >> howeverrrrr... then there is spamhaus... >> > yeah, but it will show good manners if you make a new thread about > that? > >> as for the ripe mailinglist being smtp... yes. it unfortunately still >> is.. and it's about the ONLY thing that still needs smtp, next to >> signing up to habbo hotel. lol. i haven't started the mail client for >> anything else in years. lol. face it: smtp is dead, the reason it is >> dead: is spamhaus itself. making it unreliable. mainly. >> > we will have to agree to disagree (or not agree - with the same > result :) ) > > smtp - 2017 my pov (and own stats) There has never been so much legit > traffic sent ever... > > Easy to check though as everyone on here has their own stats and to > quickly analize 25 vs say 80 (wow - and 443 is just as crazy in terms of > growth as 25!) in 2015 as compared to 2016 - smtp is alive and kicking > (so is 443!) > > Andre > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 15:37:32 +0200 From: ox mailto:andre@ox.co.za To: HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker mailto:svenk@xs4all.nl Cc: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Fwd: Re: RBL policy Message-ID: mailto:mailman.5202.1485793288.1952.anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 13:19:32 +0000 HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker mailto:svenk@xs4all.nl wrote: > as for smtp being alive.. out of 4 billion ips some 200k run an smtp > server... still a lot more than ftp (including badly configured > printers and security cameras).. but considering it's a protocol that > was supposed to run on each and every workstation. it's dead. > > facebook has more users per second than smtp has mails per year. lol. > https://zephoria.com/top-15-valuable-facebook-statistics/ statistics, facts (after they happened) are so crazy, lol In 2015, the number of emails sent and received per day total over 205 billion... in 2016 email/smtp = +8% lol and 2017 - looks to be even more hectic. - smtp maybe closer to 300 billion (per day) or 109 Trillion emails per year...lol by 2020 we may be at 1000 trillion emails... how many users does facebook have per day. lol > > On 30 ???, 2017 ? 01:13, ox wrote: > > On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 13:01:46 +0000 > > HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker mailto:svenk@xs4all.nl wrote: > >> no not all dnsbls are a problem. none of the other ones block > >> non-directly related prefixes as a means of extortion into complete > >> breach of contract. there are some 110 of them last time we > >> checked. we only were on the 2 operated by spamhaus. :P > >> so by far... pretty much all dnsbl's list the ips that originate > >> the 'undesired' traffic, which stops it from > >> reaching those that use their service, and that's where it ends for > >> them... that's perfectly acceptable. > >> (as long as it's the actual end user making the decision to use > >> their 'filtering' or not) > >> > > Okay, got it, thank you for that > > > >> howeverrrrr... then there is spamhaus... > >> > > yeah, but it will show good manners if you make a new thread about > > that? > > > >> as for the ripe mailinglist being smtp... yes. it unfortunately > >> still is.. and it's about the ONLY thing that still needs smtp, > >> next to signing up to habbo hotel. lol. i haven't started the mail > >> client for anything else in years. lol. face it: smtp is dead, the > >> reason it is dead: is spamhaus itself. making it unreliable. > >> mainly. > >> > > we will have to agree to disagree (or not agree - with the same > > result :) ) > > > > smtp - 2017 my pov (and own stats) There has never been so much > > legit traffic sent ever... > > > > Easy to check though as everyone on here has their own stats and to > > quickly analize 25 vs say 80 (wow - and 443 is just as crazy in > > terms of growth as 25!) in 2015 as compared to 2016 - smtp is > > alive and kicking (so is 443!) > > > > Andre > > > > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 16:36:48 +0200 From: ox mailto:andre@ox.co.za To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Fwd: Re: RBL policy Message-ID: mailto:mailman.5203.1485793288.1952.anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 14:25:01 +0000 HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker mailto:svenk@xs4all.nl wrote: > although i can't see how you managed to obtain statistics on the > number of emails being sent each day... unless spamhaus would like to > admit that they also spy on dns requests to their dnsbl... which <snip> Okay, we can just agree to disagree - or simply just disagree is also good. lol May I please solicit some comments about Abuse Block lists (Without detracting from RFC 5782 and RFC 6471 or : https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-409 ) Considering that DNSBL tech is "MOSTLY" "reactive" (after he abuse) - although - there are - some - DNSBL (apparently Spamhaus? etc etc) that apparently block before anything happens (thank you for pointing this out Simon) The block time policies of RBLs - Not specifically anyone blocklist in particular - just the general policies) *********************************** Among the reactive and pre emptive DNSBL, there are two main types of block lists: No automatic removal and automatic removal Is the policy to auto de-list after a period of time, still accurate? or should block lists not auto de list at all any longer? If still auto de-list - Considering the change in abuse patterns and technology, should the block times be increased or de-creased? Then; Ignoring pre-emptive - predictive (in advance for no reason) blocking: Does society require more specialist non auto de-list DNSBLs? (Would it be helpful to civil society, law enforcement etc to have a "child pornography" dnsbl? or a phish dnsbl? - or is the reactive time to high in order for dynamic ipv4? - but on ipv6 allocations to devices could be more 'permanent'? etc) Andre ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 13:21:54 +0000 From: HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker mailto:svenk@xs4all.nl To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Fwd: Re: RBL policy Message-ID: mailto:840945de-6bb5-c7f3-a7e7-231ea0117f23@xs4all.nl Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" smtp is just one of many protocols out there, a primitive, fairly unimportant and severely lacking in terms of security one at that, and it's protection cannot be a reason for any disconnection -ever-. On 30 ???, 2017 ? 01:17, HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker wrote: > > and now it's time for everyone here, to stop giving stevieboy his way > with his absurd definitions of 'abuse'... if there is no law against > it in the country in which the customer recides. its no reason for > disconnection. doing so is not delivering a paid service, caving into > blackmail, and undermining provider immunity by caving in to any > random idiot that just so happens to have gained influence over mail > delivery, and frequently abuses said (advertised) influence to commit > computer sabotage (he knows what the impacts of his listings are, he > advertises with it), to extort the internet industry into wasting > valuable manhours on him and his self-declared 'delisting procedure', > and breach valuable contracts. > > if he mentions any ip address (or worse: personal details) in his > crappy slander and blackmail system he calls 'spamhaus' just call the > feds on him. the guardia civil for example as he currently is in spain. > > viola 13 > > puerta d' andratx. > > under no circumstance should 'spamhaus' be allowed to dictate which > customers to serve and which not. simple as that. > > > now act PROFESSIONAL and stop giving this idiot his way just because > he mentions 'spam'. as if 'spam' > > is the worst thing that ever happened to the internet... how about him > trying to get entire isps disconnected. who gives a shit about him and > his 'spam'. > > > > > On 30 ???, 2017 ? 01:09, HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker wrote: >> >> one would almost go and set up a few 1000 smtp servers, all sending >> steve linford viagra offers, just to annoy the guy back. operational >> costs would go through the roof tho lol. >> >> >> On 30 ???, 2017 ? 01:04, HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker wrote: >>> >>> btw. this is europe. not america. we can say fuck however many times >>> we want over here. tyvm. and in the case of spamhaus, it's fully >>> applicable. spamhaus IS a cancer. that was using this mailinglist >>> just a few hours ago to try to further the reach of their cancerous >>> censorship tool disguised as a 'spam fighter' >>> >>> >>> On 30 ???, 2017 ? 01:03, HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker wrote: >>>> >>>> if the fully appropriate language used is the only thing you can >>>> think of as an argument, that shows it's completely right. lol. >>>> you're free to google 'cb3rob' and see what steve linford told the >>>> 'world press' about our operations in the past. so far for >>>> inappropriate language. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 30 ???, 2017 ? 12:58, Tobias Knecht wrote: >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> @Sven Olaf: >>>>> Please stop using this type of offensive language! >>>>> This is a public mailinglist and not a place for you to rant and >>>>> attack in the way you are at the moment. >>>>> >>>>> So step back for a minute, take a deep breath and calm down! >>>>> >>>>> And if you feel you can send a message without using this type of >>>>> language, feel free to do so, otherwise stay away! >>>>> >>>>> If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me directly. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Tobias >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> ?RIPE Anti Abuse Working Group Co-Chair >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ? >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 1:46 PM, HRH Prince Sven Olaf von >>>>> CyberBunker <svenk(a)xs4all.nl mailto:svenk@xs4all.nl> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> btw it would be of great assistance in this matter if transit >>>>> carriers, simply, only HAD asn's and no ip prefixes that can >>>>> be used as a blackmailing vector. don't quite see why everyone >>>>> combines the 'isp' part with the 'transit providing' part of >>>>> their operations. parties that provide transit, have no need >>>>> for ip space (bgp sessions are better on 10.0.0.0/8 >>>>> <http://10.0.0.0/8> anyway, prevents attack from 'outside'). >>>>> if there are no ip's there is nothing idiots like spamhaus (so >>>>> far they are the only ones) can 'blacklist' to 'build up >>>>> pressure' to breach contracts. so just split up those operations. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 30 ???, 2017 ? 12:32, HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> customer wants to send packets from ip A to ip b... did they >>>>>> arrive? -> yes. we did our job. no -> we did not do our job. >>>>>> i can't quite see why we would even need to know what 'smtp' >>>>>> is. nor any of the other obscure shit protocols out there. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 30 ???, 2017 ? 12:30, HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> content. is NEVER. network-related-abuse. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'making more use of a mail protocol that in every other way >>>>>>> is used as intended' is also not 'network-related-abuse' in >>>>>>> fact it's not abuse at all. it's like tv advertisements. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'malware and virusses' all simply exploit the same old >>>>>>> services 'provided' by crappy windows malware, which should >>>>>>> get some import restrictions, and the problem is solved ay. >>>>>>> it's windows itself that is the malware there... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'phishing'... so you're saying your bank login procedure >>>>>>> sucks balls and/or you think 16 numbers on the front and 3 >>>>>>> top secret ones on the back of a plastic card people show in >>>>>>> every restaurant they go to are 'security' - go fix your own >>>>>>> crap and stop bothering us, we forward -packets-. we don't >>>>>>> have time to hunt ghosts for your broken financial services. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'announcing the whole god damn internet split up into >>>>>>> /24s'.. - yes .. that's 'abuse'. lol. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and either way... if someone doesn't like what someone else >>>>>>> is doing they can take them to the -appropriate- courts (of >>>>>>> the other party) and try to get them to stop... blackmailing >>>>>>> the sales department of the transit carriers of their >>>>>>> supplier of their supplier of their supplier, will only make >>>>>>> them change isps, cause financial loss (or gains: setup >>>>>>> fees), etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> so far all spamhaus has ever established is: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - a whole lot of unroutable/unsellable/unusable ipv4 >>>>>>> 'burned' ranges. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - smtp is no longer peer to peer (their bashing on open relays) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - smtp is no longer real time (graylisting) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - smtp is no longer reliable (with over 20 million ip >>>>>>> addresses listed despite there only being 300k mailservers >>>>>>> in the world, no wonder!) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> so instead of stopping spam, they managed to kill of smtp. >>>>>>> congratulations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> everyone now uses skype and facebook (which are real-time >>>>>>> and do have friends-lists) lolol. you have succeeded in >>>>>>> bringing microsoft and facebook users to spy on. well done. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> if smtp is 'getting less' that is only because it has no >>>>>>> users left. people only start it up to read ripe >>>>>>> mailinglists (lol) or sign up for habbo hotel. FACT. lol. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> none of our customers has ever sent UCE from our networks... >>>>>>> because... ever since 2004... we have simply blocked port >>>>>>> 25... smtp only causes -shit- and it -delivers shit- >>>>>>> (abusemail and 'legal' threats about shit that is not our >>>>>>> problem). we sure as hell have some customers that cause >>>>>>> 'shit' but they usually do it in somewhat more profitable >>>>>>> markets than sending 'spam' and most definately can buy a tv >>>>>>> station or 2 to do their advertisements on. tyvm spamhaus. lol. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> where this 'mytical' spammer that can pay our 1000-1500 >>>>>>> euros per month per server would come from, i don't know, i >>>>>>> certainly have never met any... i tried to invoice one 60k >>>>>>> once and he backed off already. poor spammers. they're like >>>>>>> child porn people. can't pay for anything, so not an urgent >>>>>>> issue at all. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> our customers frequently have the entire fucking cia rolling >>>>>>> over their doorstep and if it's not them its the god damn >>>>>>> copyright mafia. slightly different budgetarial picture >>>>>>> there. shit that -is- worth the trouble. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> now, please take your shitty nagging about 'abuse' of your >>>>>>> crappy silly old smtp protocol, which doesn't even >>>>>>> -originate- from our networks in the first fucking place, >>>>>>> and stick it where the sun doesn't shine... as for >>>>>>> malware... windows is the malware there... it facilitates >>>>>>> all the programs residing on top of the same old 1990s badly >>>>>>> implemented os/2 ripoff crap. so basically call mickeysoft >>>>>>> and ask them to fix the bugs they all exploit, or call the >>>>>>> european commission and impose trade bans against microsoft. >>>>>>> simple enough. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 30 ???, 2017 ? 12:13, HRH Prince Sven Olaf von >>>>>>> CyberBunker wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> advertising the sale of : viagra, sex slaves, ak47s, porn >>>>>>>> of any kind, human trafficing services, specific animals, >>>>>>>> cocain, data obtained through espionage, encryption >>>>>>>> technology, vpns, gay propaganda, military propaganda, etc >>>>>>>> is subject to applicable local law (if any, and if there is >>>>>>>> none, it's perfectly fine)... not 'spamhaus policies' as >>>>>>>> spamhaus is not supposed to be 'the internet government'. >>>>>>>> even if they think they should be. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> if the uk wants to keep certain products from entering >>>>>>>> 'their' territory (and in doing so limit the freedom of >>>>>>>> their own stakeholders/tax payers) that is up to them >>>>>>>> others choose not to work against their own >>>>>>>> stakeholders/tax payers that way. they have a customs >>>>>>>> department to keep said products outside. can't tell others >>>>>>>> not to produce or sell or advertise it. setting up dirty >>>>>>>> front operations like 'spamhaus' to lure naive nerds into >>>>>>>> the illusion that they would be 'fighting spam' is a very >>>>>>>> nasty thing to do. geo-political wise and business wise. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> now... in thailand porn is illegal... so... let's >>>>>>>> disconnect all porn sites because thailand wants us to, oh >>>>>>>> but wait, thailand doesn't have a 'spamhaus' thinking they >>>>>>>> rule the entire internet through means of blackmail and >>>>>>>> calling people 'spammers' or 'spam supporters'. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> what also works, besides blackmailing with committing >>>>>>>> computer sabotage against the sales department of suppliers >>>>>>>> of suppliers of suppliers of the publisher of a website, >>>>>>>> are: assassins, commandos, carpet bombing, agent orange. >>>>>>>> etc... all of which should be deployed against spamhaus if >>>>>>>> you ask me. :P but a nullroute would suffice. lol. after >>>>>>>> all bgp is an 'advisory' to 'voluntary peers' and 'we don't >>>>>>>> block anything' as they themselves always say. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 30 ???, 2017 ? 11:29, Esa Laitinen wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 12:19 PM HRH Prince Sven Olaf von >>>>>>>>> CyberBunker <svenk(a)xs4all.nl mailto:svenk@xs4all.nl> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> also it's quite vague that when some mossadis rent >>>>>>>>> servers and run an espionage botnet on it (which we >>>>>>>>> happily intercept ourselves ofcourse) - spamhaus >>>>>>>>> somehow magically never lists -that-.. just >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Looking at the amusing rant of Sven Olaf, it seems that >>>>>>>>> the listing works! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Keep up the good work, spamhaus et al! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> esa >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >

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