May 2018 - anti-abuse-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Decision on Proposal 2017-02
by Name 19 Feb '19

19 Feb '19

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GDPR - ICANN vs Tucows
by Michele Neylon - Blacknight 31 May '18

31 May '18

https://www.internetnews.me/2018/05/31/icann-vs-epag-tucows-german-court-ru… -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ http://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by Malcolm Hutty 30 May '18

30 May '18

On 30/05/2018 04:47, it was written: > Well, many people. let me start with myself: You claim that my opinions > are rubbish and you compare my opinions to those same people > (Fox/Republicans) whom: > > violently take babies away from mommies - yes, at a border Americans > grab little babies from the hands of their mothers and take the mommy > and the little baby to different "detention" facilities. I have been following this thread with great interest, and have found points I find persuasive and unpersuasive on both sides. It could be said that the thread is wandering off into unproductive theorising, but in the circumstances of the advent of GDPR, whether public WHOIS really is a necessary or important component of anti-abuse activities seems a broad topic worth debating fully. Some light has even been shed on GDPR's meaning. I also consider myself highly tolerant of passionate and occasionally intemperate comments. It seems to me that it is better to have it out, and to show the respect of tolerating less well mannered arguments, than to try to aggressively police language and so exclude many people from full participation in the debate. Usually those that go over the top do more harm to their own case than to others, and that has been how I have reacted to some of the comments in this thread. But can we please leave out accusations that your political opponents abduct babies? That surely crosses the line. The trope is, at least, Older Than Feudalism, and very likely Older Than Dirt, and as always raising it serves no purpose other than to demonise one group of people and to smear another by association, thereby shutting down the conversation. It's not an argument, it's a transparent attempt to exclude. Please stop. More generally, I believe this discussion would be improved if people stopped throwing around terms like "European" and "Republican" as though they are terms of abuse. Our community is, and should be, open to all. Regards, Malcolm. -- Malcolm Hutty | tel: +44 20 7645 3523 Head of Public Affairs | Read the LINX Public Affairs blog London Internet Exchange | http://publicaffairs.linx.net/ London Internet Exchange Ltd Monument Place, 24 Monument Street London EC3R 8AJ Company Registered in England No. 3137929 Trinity Court, Trinity Street, Peterborough PE1 1DA

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by Brian Nisbet 30 May '18

30 May '18

Folks, Right, nobody, right now, is talking about banning anyone. Can we all please step back from the way this conversation is going and discuss the facts around what is happening. Your opinions on governments or groups are yours, that's fine, but the discussion is not enhanced by them becoming the focus. Please remember, as I said, that this mailing list is covered by the RIPE Community Code of Conduct which is here: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/ripe-mailing-list-ripe-forum-code-of-… I would really prefer if we could ensure that everyone feels welcome to participate in discussion on this mailing list. Thanks, Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 > -----Original Message----- > From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> On Behalf Of ox > Sent: Wednesday 30 May 2018 13:59 > To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > On Wed, 30 May 2018 13:37:20 +0100 > Malcolm Hutty <malcolm(a)linx.net> wrote: > > > Please stop. This is not helpful. > > > > so, what you are saying is that I should stop sending email? > or, whatever my opinions are, has to only be helpful? > > or if you say something, then it has to be accepted? > > I am a human person, I have feelings and when my feelings are insulted, I > react. I am not a particularly helpful person. > > > > But, I do not tell other people, in public, that their opinions are rubbish. > > > > In fact, I do not recall personally insulting anyone on this list, over many > years. > > I also do not compare the opinions of other people to evil people in my > country. > > I am tired of people demanding respect but treating other people like crap. > > I am tired of wolves hiding in sheep clothing. > > I am tired of being quiet. > > I am tired of people twisting words, making up fake news. > > Like you just did Malcolm, > > Simply saying: "accusations that your political opponents abduct babies" > > Without being responsible for your words. > > You should apologise Malcolm, but you will not. > > There is no reason why I should simply accept your word from on high. > > So, ban me from this wg and this email list then. Even though I have not > abused anyone. > > > ban me for taking offense, feeling hurt and speaking the truth. > > > Please do that. Show me you can? You know you want to. > > > > On 30/05/2018 13:36, ox wrote: > > > On Wed, 30 May 2018 13:06:57 +0100 > > > Malcolm Hutty <malcolm(a)linx.net> wrote: > > >> > > >> But can we please leave out accusations that your political > > >> opponents abduct babies? That surely crosses the line. The trope > > >> is, at least, > > > > > > there are no accusations of any kind. > > > > > > and, to be more clear, nobody said anything about abducting. > > > > > > Factually: > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/28/us/trump-immigrant-children- > lost. > > > html > > > > > > The USA does forcefully remove babies from the arms of their > > > mothers. > > > > > > Furthermore: The US Government does "lose" 000 these children. > > > > > > This is not accusations. And, mentioning the facts, as they are, > > > undisputed, does not cross any line. > > > > > > And who are 'political opponents' ? > > > > > > Please do bother actually reading the argument? or ask if you did > > > not understand it? > > > > > > Simply stating that, in your opinion, there are accusations and > > > abductions are pathetic in itself as it completely ignores or > > > addresses the salient fact that Ronald said my opinion is 'rubbish' > > > and that my opinion is equal to what "Fox" blasts out and "Fox" (by > > > implication, Republicans, in America states. > > > > > > It is my choice to find that offensive as by implication my opinion > > > equates that which the USA (and Fox) is promoting. > > > > > > As it disgusts me, it is an insult and it is offensive. > > > > > > > > >> Older Than Feudalism, and very likely Older Than Dirt, and as > > >> always raising it serves no purpose other than to demonise one > > >> group of people and to smear another by association, thereby > > >> shutting down the conversation. It's not an argument, it's a > > >> transparent attempt to exclude. Please stop. > > >> > > > Please stop what? Speaking the truth? > > > > > > Taking offense at people equating my opinions to rubbish? > > > > > > Please be more clear in what you are stating Malcolm? What would you > > > like to stop? > > > > > >> More generally, I believe this discussion would be improved if > > >> people stopped throwing around terms like "European" and > > >> "Republican" as though they are terms of abuse. Our community is, > > >> and should be, open to all. > > >> > > > Who said anything to the contrary? > > > > > > Andre > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by Malcolm Hutty 30 May '18

30 May '18

Please stop. This is not helpful. On 30/05/2018 13:36, ox wrote: > On Wed, 30 May 2018 13:06:57 +0100 > Malcolm Hutty <malcolm(a)linx.net> wrote: >> >> But can we please leave out accusations that your political opponents >> abduct babies? That surely crosses the line. The trope is, at least, > > there are no accusations of any kind. > > and, to be more clear, nobody said anything about abducting. > > Factually: > https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/28/us/trump-immigrant-children-lost.html > > The USA does forcefully remove babies from the arms of their mothers. > > Furthermore: The US Government does "lose" 000 these children. > > This is not accusations. And, mentioning the facts, as they are, > undisputed, does not cross any line. > > And who are 'political opponents' ? > > Please do bother actually reading the argument? or ask if you did not > understand it? > > Simply stating that, in your opinion, there are accusations and > abductions are pathetic in itself as it completely ignores or > addresses the salient fact that Ronald said my opinion is 'rubbish' > and that my opinion is equal to what "Fox" blasts out and "Fox" (by > implication, Republicans, in America states. > > It is my choice to find that offensive as by implication my opinion > equates that which the USA (and Fox) is promoting. > > As it disgusts me, it is an insult and it is offensive. > > >> Older Than Feudalism, and very likely Older Than Dirt, and as always >> raising it serves no purpose other than to demonise one group of >> people and to smear another by association, thereby shutting down the >> conversation. It's not an argument, it's a transparent attempt to >> exclude. Please stop. >> > Please stop what? Speaking the truth? > > Taking offense at people equating my opinions to rubbish? > > Please be more clear in what you are stating Malcolm? What would you > like to stop? > >> More generally, I believe this discussion would be improved if people >> stopped throwing around terms like "European" and "Republican" as >> though they are terms of abuse. Our community is, and should be, open >> to all. >> > Who said anything to the contrary? > > Andre > > > -- Malcolm Hutty | tel: +44 20 7645 3523 Head of Public Affairs | Read the LINX Public Affairs blog London Internet Exchange | http://publicaffairs.linx.net/ London Internet Exchange Ltd Monument Place, 24 Monument Street London EC3R 8AJ Company Registered in England No. 3137929 Trinity Court, Trinity Street, Peterborough PE1 1DA

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by Ronald F. Guilmette 30 May '18

30 May '18

ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> wrote: >Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade >groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came >into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom >and gloom. I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold. >How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) Be patient. The change has only just occurred. >The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of >individual rights and the free Internet. Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish. The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not. Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses. Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with toasts of champaign. Regards, rfg

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 29 May '18

29 May '18

Well, we disagree in the definition of abuse maybe? You can find many definitions of this: "Spamming is the abuse of electronic messaging systems to send unsolicited bulk messages, which are generally undesired" So, spam is abuse, and I don't need to know IPs to send spam. The mail server will use DNS to find them. Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 15:57 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse I am so happy that you are asking this question :) This is what causes much confusion with people, including experienced netadmins, sysadmins and many very technically advanced people. You can use any email address as an example: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Please think about it for a second: How would you go about sending spam to this email address without using an IP number? It is not possible for Internet abuse to exist - without an IP number. So, for this wg : EVERYTHING that is abuse is powered by IP numbers. Andre On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:51:38 +0200 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: > How come you can't send spam without the IP? > > I can look for new registered domains, use whois for catching the > emails that appear there, and then spam them. > > This is something that I experience everytime I register a new > domain, tons of spams to the whois recently created email contacts. > > Regards, > Jordi > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de ox > <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 15:39 > Para: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > > Please correct me if you think I am wrong: > > 1. > You cannot send spam without an IP number. > > 2. > You cannot do any abuse without an IP number. > > > I can do a whois on any.com or some.eu and have a tech or abuse > email address and WORKING registrar contact information. > > I cannot do a whois on ALL ripe assigned ipv4 resources and get > accurate and/or working resource contact information. > > > So, where the problem is - is easy to see, no? > > Andre > > > On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:12:27 +0200 > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> > wrote: > > I consider an abuse the fact of collecting emails and sending > > spam. Also, if you have a domain, you can see what IPs are > > related to it for other kinds of abuses. > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de > > ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za > > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 14:32 > > Para: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> > > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email > > abuse > > > > > > Abuse has nothing to do with a domain name. > > > > Nobody can abuse anyone armed only with a domain name. > > > > Without using an actual IP number, a domain name can do > > nothing. > > Protecting the privacy of a domain registrant is absolutely > > correct. > > The trouble is that network operators are resistant to > > accept the responsibility (costs, issues, trouble) of managing > > abuse > > Even if you do a whois right now, you will find a functional > > registrar abuse email address. > > > > The same cannot yet be said for the resources assigned by > > this RR > > Andre > > > > > > On Tue, 29 May 2018 14:00:44 +0200 > > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg > > <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: > > > Whois, as everything in the life, has good and bad things. > > > Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, when you register a new > > > domain and you associate a visible email to it, in a > > > matter of hours, you get spam. > > > Pro: If it is a real email with humans behind, it > > > facilitates the resolution of abuse cases. > > > The balance is always difficult ... > > > Regards, > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en > > > nombre de Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> > > > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 13:49 Para: Suresh > > > Ramasubramanian <ops.lists(a)gmail.com>, > > > "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Asunto: > > > Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > > > > > > > > > > > Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that helps > > > identify bad actors by means of violating privacy rights > > > of millions. There are other tools, like DNS traces, > > > reviews of hosting infrastructures used, etc. all of > > > which will continue to be available for the uses you > > > refer to. > > > > > > And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement is better > > > equipped to deal with such issues earlier and faster. Up > > > to now, governments have been afforded the luxury of > > > being able to underfund such efforts as others were doing > > > their jobs for them. Maybe this will lead to better law > > > enforcement and international cooperation. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Volker > > > > > > > > > > > > Am 29.05.2018 um 13:34 schrieb Suresh Ramasubramanian: > > > > > > This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short sighted > > > > > > > > > > > > All security practitioners protect our respective > > > services and networks against a wide variety of threats > > > including malware and phish campaigns. > > > > > > > > > > > > Very few of those go on to be referred to law enforcement > > > and that only after an extensive dossier is built > > > internally to show that the perps in question justify a - > > > frequently cross border - law enforcement action. > > > > > > > > > > > > Security and protecting user privacy go hand in hand and > > > I wish more people realised that, and maybe also realised > > > the resource and administrative lconstraints and limits > > > law enforcement is saddled with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> on > > > behalf of Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 4:06:18 PM To: > > > anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR > > > - positive effects on email abuse > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is > > > high with this one. > > > > > > Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may > > > be more difficult to detect and take action against due > > > to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that > > > tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights > > > to privacy of millions of domain owners. > > > > > > "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops > > > will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such > > > data as they will finally have to do so by legal means, > > > but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking > > > upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by > > > actual law enforcement. > > > > > > Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being > > > public will lead to better registration data for those > > > with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will > > > have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that > > > does not violate the rights of millions. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Volker > > > > > > > > > > > > Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette: > > > > ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> wrote: > > > > > > > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the > > > >> multinationals and their funded trade groups (and > > > >> their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if > > > >> the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU would > > > >> collapse and there would be digital doom and > > > >> gloom. > > > > I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer > > > > anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told > > > > everyone I know that the disappearance of public WHOIS > > > > is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was > > > > cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be > > > > increased, going forward, by tenfold. > > > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can > > > >> all clearly see) > > > > Be patient. The change has only just occurred. > > > > > > > >> The EU has truly become a world and global leader in > > > >> the reclamation of individual rights and the free > > > >> Internet. > > > > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn > > > > on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of > > > > rubbish. > > > > > > > > The only thing that has happened is that private > > > > researchers the world over have been effectively > > > > blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of > > > > europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, > > > > have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist > > > > their demented notions onto the rest of the world, > > > > whether any of the rest of us like it or not. > > > > > > > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored > > > > intrigue and violation of human rights are and shall > > > > remain totally unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as > > > > they will be the first ones to obtain special > > > > exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data. > > > > The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating > > > > the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches their > > > > special status at the expense of the great unwashes > > > > masses. > > > > > > > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and > > > > democracy, but all across the globe both criminals and > > > > statists undoubtedly celebrated it with toasts of > > > > champaign. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > rfg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > IPv4 is over > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > http://www.consulintel.es > > The IPv6 Company > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be > > privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be > > for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and > > further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, > > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even > > if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited > > and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the > > intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, > > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even > > if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, > > will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the > > original sender to inform about this communication and delete > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged > or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive > use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty > authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents > of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is > strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you > are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be > considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original > sender to inform about this communication and delete it. > > > > > ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by Volker Greimann 29 May '18

29 May '18

OK, let'S ban IP numbers then. Clearly they are evil! ;-) Am 29.05.2018 um 16:12 schrieb ox: > Jordi, > > This is a technical statement, it is not a pov (point of view) - it is a simple and salient fact: > > No abuse on the Internet is possible without an IP number. > > In your example: > > the mail server = the IP number. > > so the abuse originates from the mail server IP number. > > the DNS = IP number > > DNS is that service that translates names into numbers, so that you are > able to deliver your spam. > > a domain by itself can do nothing. > > hth > > Andre > > > On Tue, 29 May 2018 16:03:41 +0200 > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: > >> Well, we disagree in the definition of abuse maybe? >> >> You can find many definitions of this: >> >> "Spamming is the abuse of electronic messaging systems to send >> unsolicited bulk messages, which are generally undesired" >> >> So, spam is abuse, and I don't need to know IPs to send spam. The >> mail server will use DNS to find them. >> >> Regards, >> Jordi >> >> >> >> -----Mensaje original----- >> De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de ox >> <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za >> Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 15:57 >> Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> >> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse >> >> >> I am so happy that you are asking this question :) >> >> This is what causes much confusion with people, including >> experienced netadmins, sysadmins and many very technically advanced >> people. >> You can use any email address as an example: >> anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net >> Please think about it for a second: >> >> How would you go about sending spam to this email address without >> using an IP number? >> >> It is not possible for Internet abuse to exist - without an IP >> number. >> So, for this wg : EVERYTHING that is abuse is powered by IP >> numbers. >> Andre >> >> On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:51:38 +0200 >> JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> >> wrote: >> > How come you can't send spam without the IP? >> > >> > I can look for new registered domains, use whois for catching >> > the emails that appear there, and then spam them. >> > >> > This is something that I experience everytime I register a new >> > domain, tons of spams to the whois recently created email >> > contacts. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Jordi >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Mensaje original----- >> > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de >> > ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za >> > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 15:39 >> > Para: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> >> > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email >> > abuse >> > >> > >> > Please correct me if you think I am wrong: >> > >> > 1. >> > You cannot send spam without an IP number. >> > >> > 2. >> > You cannot do any abuse without an IP number. >> > >> > >> > I can do a whois on any.com or some.eu and have a tech or >> > abuse email address and WORKING registrar contact information. >> > >> > I cannot do a whois on ALL ripe assigned ipv4 resources and >> > get accurate and/or working resource contact information. >> > >> > >> > So, where the problem is - is easy to see, no? >> > >> > Andre >> > >> > >> > On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:12:27 +0200 >> > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg >> > <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: >> > > I consider an abuse the fact of collecting emails and >> > > sending spam. Also, if you have a domain, you can see >> > > what IPs are related to it for other kinds of abuses. >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > Jordi >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -----Mensaje original----- >> > > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en >> > > nombre de ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za >> > > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 14:32 >> > > Para: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> >> > > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on >> > > email abuse >> > > >> > > >> > > Abuse has nothing to do with a domain name. >> > > >> > > Nobody can abuse anyone armed only with a domain name. >> > > >> > > Without using an actual IP number, a domain name can >> > > do nothing. >> > > Protecting the privacy of a domain registrant is >> > > absolutely correct. >> > > The trouble is that network operators are resistant to >> > > accept the responsibility (costs, issues, trouble) of >> > > managing abuse >> > > Even if you do a whois right now, you will find a >> > > functional registrar abuse email address. >> > > >> > > The same cannot yet be said for the resources >> > > assigned by this RR >> > > Andre >> > > >> > > >> > > On Tue, 29 May 2018 14:00:44 +0200 >> > > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg >> > > <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: >> > > > Whois, as everything in the life, has good and bad >> > > > things. Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, when you >> > > > register a new domain and you associate a visible >> > > > email to it, in a matter of hours, you get spam. >> > > > Pro: If it is a real email with humans behind, it >> > > > facilitates the resolution of abuse cases. >> > > > The balance is always difficult ... >> > > > Regards, >> > > > Jordi >> > > >> > > > >> > > > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> >> > > > en nombre de Volker Greimann >> > > > <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> Fecha: martes, 29 de >> > > > mayo de 2018, 13:49 Para: Suresh Ramasubramanian >> > > > <ops.lists(a)gmail.com>, "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" >> > > > <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Asunto: Re: >> > > > [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email >> > > > abuse >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that >> > > > helps identify bad actors by means of violating >> > > > privacy rights of millions. There are other tools, >> > > > like DNS traces, reviews of hosting infrastructures >> > > > used, etc. all of which will continue to be >> > > > available for the uses you refer to. >> > > > >> > > > And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement is >> > > > better equipped to deal with such issues earlier >> > > > and faster. Up to now, governments have been >> > > > afforded the luxury of being able to underfund such >> > > > efforts as others were doing their jobs for them. >> > > > Maybe this will lead to better law enforcement and >> > > > international cooperation. >> > > > >> > > > Best, >> > > > >> > > > Volker >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Am 29.05.2018 um 13:34 schrieb Suresh >> > > > Ramasubramanian: >> > > > >> > > > This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short >> > > > sighted >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > All security practitioners protect our respective >> > > > services and networks against a wide variety of >> > > > threats including malware and phish campaigns. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Very few of those go on to be referred to law >> > > > enforcement and that only after an extensive >> > > > dossier is built internally to show that the perps >> > > > in question justify a - frequently cross border - >> > > > law enforcement action. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Security and protecting user privacy go hand in >> > > > hand and I wish more people realised that, and >> > > > maybe also realised the resource and administrative >> > > > lconstraints and limits law enforcement is saddled >> > > > with >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > From: anti-abuse-wg >> > > > <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> on behalf of >> > > > Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> Sent: >> > > > Tuesday, May 29, 2018 4:06:18 PM To: >> > > > anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] >> > > > GDPR >> > > > - positive effects on email abuse >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and >> > > > fearmongering is high with this one. >> > > > >> > > > Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. >> > > > It may be more difficult to detect and take action >> > > > against due to the loss of one tool amongst many, >> > > > but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with >> > > > as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of >> > > > domain owners. >> > > > >> > > > "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or >> > > > rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult time >> > > > to obtain such data as they will finally have to do >> > > > so by legal means, but then they are in an >> > > > untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves >> > > > functions that should be fulfilled by actual law >> > > > enforcement. >> > > > >> > > > Ultimately, private data if internet users no >> > > > longer being public will lead to better >> > > > registration data for those with a right to access >> > > > it. Those with no such rights will have to figure >> > > > out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not >> > > > violate the rights of millions. >> > > > >> > > > Best, >> > > > >> > > > Volker >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. >> > > > Guilmette: >> > > > > ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the >> > > > >> multinationals and their funded trade groups (and >> > > > >> their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that >> > > > >> if the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU >> > > > >> would collapse and there would be digital doom >> > > > >> and gloom. >> > > > > I am not a multinational. I am an individual >> > > > > volunteer anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- >> > > > > have told everyone I know that the disappearance >> > > > > of public WHOIS is and will be an epic >> > > > > catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the >> > > > > Internet before, it will be increased, going >> > > > > forward, by tenfold. >> > > > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as >> > > > >> we can all clearly see) >> > > > > Be patient. The change has only just occurred. >> > > > > >> > > > >> The EU has truly become a world and global >> > > > >> leader in the reclamation of individual rights >> > > > >> and the free Internet. >> > > > > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to >> > > > > turn on Fox News in order to be treated to this >> > > > > level of rubbish. >> > > > > >> > > > > The only thing that has happened is that private >> > > > > researchers the world over have been effectively >> > > > > blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of >> > > > > europeans... europeans who, in their religious >> > > > > fervor, have come to view it as their holy >> > > > > obligation to foist their demented notions onto >> > > > > the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of >> > > > > us like it or not. >> > > > > >> > > > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored >> > > > > intrigue and violation of human rights are and >> > > > > shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by >> > > > > GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain >> > > > > special exemptions allowing them to continue to >> > > > > see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are >> > > > > undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as >> > > > > it further entrenches their special status at the >> > > > > expense of the great unwashes masses. >> > > > > >> > > > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and >> > > > > democracy, but all across the globe both >> > > > > criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it >> > > > > with toasts of champaign. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Regards, >> > > > > rfg >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ********************************************** >> > > IPv4 is over >> > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? >> > > http://www.consulintel.es >> > > The IPv6 Company >> > > >> > > This electronic message contains information which may be >> > > privileged or confidential. The information is intended >> > > to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named >> > > above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, >> > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >> > > information, even if partially, including attached files, >> > > is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal >> > > offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware >> > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the >> > > contents of this information, even if partially, >> > > including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be >> > > considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the >> > > original sender to inform about this communication and >> > > delete it. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ********************************************** >> > IPv4 is over >> > Are you ready for the new Internet ? >> > http://www.consulintel.es >> > The IPv6 Company >> > >> > This electronic message contains information which may be >> > privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be >> > for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and >> > further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, >> > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even >> > if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited >> > and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the >> > intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, >> > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even >> > if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, >> > will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the >> > original sender to inform about this communication and delete >> > it. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ********************************************** >> IPv4 is over >> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >> http://www.consulintel.es >> The IPv6 Company >> >> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged >> or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive >> use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty >> authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents >> of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is >> strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you >> are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if >> partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be >> considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original >> sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >> >> >> >> >> > -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann(a)key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann(a)key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.

2 1

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by Michele Neylon - Blacknight 29 May '18

29 May '18

Andre 1 - yes and no - you need access to an SMTP server. 2 - again - you need access to resources I agree however that the domain without anything attached to it can't do anything The resources need IPs.. Re: RIPE whois - if there are inaccuracies you can report them to RIPE. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ http://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 On 29/05/2018, 14:39, "anti-abuse-wg on behalf of ox" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net on behalf of andre(a)ox.co.za> wrote: Please correct me if you think I am wrong: 1. You cannot send spam without an IP number. 2. You cannot do any abuse without an IP number. I can do a whois on any.com or some.eu and have a tech or abuse email address and WORKING registrar contact information. I cannot do a whois on ALL ripe assigned ipv4 resources and get accurate and/or working resource contact information. So, where the problem is - is easy to see, no? Andre On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:12:27 +0200 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: > I consider an abuse the fact of collecting emails and sending spam. > Also, if you have a domain, you can see what IPs are related to it > for other kinds of abuses. > > Regards, > Jordi > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de ox > <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 14:32 > Para: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > > Abuse has nothing to do with a domain name. > > Nobody can abuse anyone armed only with a domain name. > > Without using an actual IP number, a domain name can do nothing. > > Protecting the privacy of a domain registrant is absolutely > correct. > The trouble is that network operators are resistant to accept the > responsibility (costs, issues, trouble) of managing abuse > > Even if you do a whois right now, you will find a functional > registrar abuse email address. > > The same cannot yet be said for the resources assigned by this RR > > Andre > > > On Tue, 29 May 2018 14:00:44 +0200 > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> > wrote: > > Whois, as everything in the life, has good and bad things. > > Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, when you register a new > > domain and you associate a visible email to it, in a matter of > > hours, you get spam. > > Pro: If it is a real email with humans behind, it facilitates > > the resolution of abuse cases. > > The balance is always difficult ... > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de > > Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> Fecha: martes, 29 > > de mayo de 2018, 13:49 Para: Suresh Ramasubramanian > > <ops.lists(a)gmail.com>, "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" > > <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - > > positive effects on email abuse > > > > > > > > Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that helps identify > > bad actors by means of violating privacy rights of millions. > > There are other tools, like DNS traces, reviews of hosting > > infrastructures used, etc. all of which will continue to be > > available for the uses you refer to. > > > > And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement is better > > equipped to deal with such issues earlier and faster. Up to > > now, governments have been afforded the luxury of being able to > > underfund such efforts as others were doing their jobs for > > them. Maybe this will lead to better law enforcement and > > international cooperation. > > > > Best, > > > > Volker > > > > > > > > Am 29.05.2018 um 13:34 schrieb Suresh Ramasubramanian: > > > > This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short sighted > > > > > > > > All security practitioners protect our respective services and > > networks against a wide variety of threats including malware and > > phish campaigns. > > > > > > > > Very few of those go on to be referred to law enforcement and > > that only after an extensive dossier is built internally to > > show that the perps in question justify a - frequently cross > > border - law enforcement action. > > > > > > > > Security and protecting user privacy go hand in hand and I wish > > more people realised that, and maybe also realised the resource > > and administrative lconstraints and limits law enforcement is > > saddled with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> on behalf > > of Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> Sent: Tuesday, > > May 29, 2018 4:06:18 PM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net > > Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email > > abuse > > > > > > > > Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high > > with this one. > > > > Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be > > more difficult to detect and take action against due to the > > loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was > > illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of > > millions of domain owners. > > > > "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will > > indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they > > will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in > > an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions > > that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement. > > > > Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being > > public will lead to better registration data for those with a > > right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to > > figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not > > violate the rights of millions. > > > > Best, > > > > Volker > > > > > > > > Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette: > > > ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> wrote: > > > > > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and > > >> their funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted > > >> from the rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, > > >> Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital > > >> doom and gloom. > > > I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer > > > anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I > > > know that the disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an > > > epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the Internet > > > before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold. > > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all > > >> clearly see) > > > Be patient. The change has only just occurred. > > > > > >> The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the > > >> reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. > > > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox > > > News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish. > > > > > > The only thing that has happened is that private researchers > > > the world over have been effectively blinded due to the > > > supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in > > > their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy > > > obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of > > > the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not. > > > > > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue > > > and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally > > > unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first > > > ones to obtain special exemptions allowing them to continue > > > to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly > > > celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches > > > their special status at the expense of the great unwashes > > > masses. > > > > > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but > > > all across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly > > > celebrated it with toasts of champaign. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > rfg > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged > or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive > use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty > authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents > of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is > strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you > are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be > considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original > sender to inform about this communication and delete it. > > > > >

2 1

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 29 May '18

29 May '18

How come you can't send spam without the IP? I can look for new registered domains, use whois for catching the emails that appear there, and then spam them. This is something that I experience everytime I register a new domain, tons of spams to the whois recently created email contacts. Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 15:39 Para: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse Please correct me if you think I am wrong: 1. You cannot send spam without an IP number. 2. You cannot do any abuse without an IP number. I can do a whois on any.com or some.eu and have a tech or abuse email address and WORKING registrar contact information. I cannot do a whois on ALL ripe assigned ipv4 resources and get accurate and/or working resource contact information. So, where the problem is - is easy to see, no? Andre On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:12:27 +0200 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: > I consider an abuse the fact of collecting emails and sending spam. > Also, if you have a domain, you can see what IPs are related to it > for other kinds of abuses. > > Regards, > Jordi > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de ox > <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 14:32 > Para: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > > Abuse has nothing to do with a domain name. > > Nobody can abuse anyone armed only with a domain name. > > Without using an actual IP number, a domain name can do nothing. > > Protecting the privacy of a domain registrant is absolutely > correct. > The trouble is that network operators are resistant to accept the > responsibility (costs, issues, trouble) of managing abuse > > Even if you do a whois right now, you will find a functional > registrar abuse email address. > > The same cannot yet be said for the resources assigned by this RR > > Andre > > > On Tue, 29 May 2018 14:00:44 +0200 > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> > wrote: > > Whois, as everything in the life, has good and bad things. > > Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, when you register a new > > domain and you associate a visible email to it, in a matter of > > hours, you get spam. > > Pro: If it is a real email with humans behind, it facilitates > > the resolution of abuse cases. > > The balance is always difficult ... > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de > > Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> Fecha: martes, 29 > > de mayo de 2018, 13:49 Para: Suresh Ramasubramanian > > <ops.lists(a)gmail.com>, "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" > > <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - > > positive effects on email abuse > > > > > > > > Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that helps identify > > bad actors by means of violating privacy rights of millions. > > There are other tools, like DNS traces, reviews of hosting > > infrastructures used, etc. all of which will continue to be > > available for the uses you refer to. > > > > And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement is better > > equipped to deal with such issues earlier and faster. Up to > > now, governments have been afforded the luxury of being able to > > underfund such efforts as others were doing their jobs for > > them. Maybe this will lead to better law enforcement and > > international cooperation. > > > > Best, > > > > Volker > > > > > > > > Am 29.05.2018 um 13:34 schrieb Suresh Ramasubramanian: > > > > This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short sighted > > > > > > > > All security practitioners protect our respective services and > > networks against a wide variety of threats including malware and > > phish campaigns. > > > > > > > > Very few of those go on to be referred to law enforcement and > > that only after an extensive dossier is built internally to > > show that the perps in question justify a - frequently cross > > border - law enforcement action. > > > > > > > > Security and protecting user privacy go hand in hand and I wish > > more people realised that, and maybe also realised the resource > > and administrative lconstraints and limits law enforcement is > > saddled with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> on behalf > > of Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> Sent: Tuesday, > > May 29, 2018 4:06:18 PM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net > > Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email > > abuse > > > > > > > > Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high > > with this one. > > > > Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be > > more difficult to detect and take action against due to the > > loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was > > illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of > > millions of domain owners. > > > > "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will > > indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they > > will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in > > an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions > > that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement. > > > > Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being > > public will lead to better registration data for those with a > > right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to > > figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not > > violate the rights of millions. > > > > Best, > > > > Volker > > > > > > > > Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette: > > > ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> wrote: > > > > > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and > > >> their funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted > > >> from the rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, > > >> Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital > > >> doom and gloom. > > > I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer > > > anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I > > > know that the disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an > > > epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the Internet > > > before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold. > > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all > > >> clearly see) > > > Be patient. The change has only just occurred. > > > > > >> The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the > > >> reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. > > > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox > > > News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish. > > > > > > The only thing that has happened is that private researchers > > > the world over have been effectively blinded due to the > > > supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in > > > their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy > > > obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of > > > the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not. > > > > > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue > > > and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally > > > unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first > > > ones to obtain special exemptions allowing them to continue > > > to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly > > > celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches > > > their special status at the expense of the great unwashes > > > masses. > > > > > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but > > > all across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly > > > celebrated it with toasts of champaign. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > rfg > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged > or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive > use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty > authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents > of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is > strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you > are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be > considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original > sender to inform about this communication and delete it. > > > > > ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 29 May '18

29 May '18

I consider an abuse the fact of collecting emails and sending spam. Also, if you have a domain, you can see what IPs are related to it for other kinds of abuses. Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 14:32 Para: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse Abuse has nothing to do with a domain name. Nobody can abuse anyone armed only with a domain name. Without using an actual IP number, a domain name can do nothing. Protecting the privacy of a domain registrant is absolutely correct. The trouble is that network operators are resistant to accept the responsibility (costs, issues, trouble) of managing abuse Even if you do a whois right now, you will find a functional registrar abuse email address. The same cannot yet be said for the resources assigned by this RR Andre On Tue, 29 May 2018 14:00:44 +0200 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: > Whois, as everything in the life, has good and bad things. > Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, when you register a new domain and > you associate a visible email to it, in a matter of hours, you get > spam. > Pro: If it is a real email with humans behind, it facilitates the > resolution of abuse cases. > The balance is always difficult ... > Regards, > Jordi > > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de > Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo > de 2018, 13:49 Para: Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists(a)gmail.com>, > "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Asunto: Re: > [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > > > Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that helps identify bad > actors by means of violating privacy rights of millions. There are > other tools, like DNS traces, reviews of hosting infrastructures > used, etc. all of which will continue to be available for the uses > you refer to. > > And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement is better equipped to > deal with such issues earlier and faster. Up to now, governments have > been afforded the luxury of being able to underfund such efforts as > others were doing their jobs for them. Maybe this will lead to better > law enforcement and international cooperation. > > Best, > > Volker > > > > Am 29.05.2018 um 13:34 schrieb Suresh Ramasubramanian: > > This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short sighted > > > > All security practitioners protect our respective services and > networks against a wide variety of threats including malware and > phish campaigns. > > > > Very few of those go on to be referred to law enforcement and that > only after an extensive dossier is built internally to show that the > perps in question justify a - frequently cross border - law > enforcement action. > > > > Security and protecting user privacy go hand in hand and I wish more > people realised that, and maybe also realised the resource and > administrative lconstraints and limits law enforcement is saddled > with > > > > > > > > From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> on behalf of > Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, > 2018 4:06:18 PM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > > > Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high with > this one. > > Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be more > difficult to detect and take action against due to the loss of one > tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with > as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners. > > "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will indeed > have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they will finally > have to do so by legal means, but then they are in an untenable > position anyway, taking upon themselves functions that should be > fulfilled by actual law enforcement. > > Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being public > will lead to better registration data for those with a right to > access it. Those with no such rights will have to figure out > alternate routes to do their jobs that does not violate the rights of > millions. > > Best, > > Volker > > > > Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette: > > ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> wrote: > > > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their > >> funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the > >> rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU > >> would collapse and there would be digital doom and gloom. > > I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse > > researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the > > disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. > > If there was cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be > > increased, going forward, by tenfold. > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly > >> see) > > Be patient. The change has only just occurred. > > > >> The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the > >> reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. > > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News > > in order to be treated to this level of rubbish. > > > > The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the > > world over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme > > arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their > > religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy obligation to > > foist their demented notions onto the rest of the world, whether > > any of the rest of us like it or not. > > > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and > > violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered > > and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain > > special exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data. > > The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating the arrival > > of GDPR, as it further entrenches their special status at the > > expense of the great unwashes masses. > > > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all > > across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated > > it with toasts of champaign. > > > > > > Regards, > > rfg > > > ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

2 1

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by Brian Nisbet 29 May '18

29 May '18

Folks, GDPR is a valid subject for this WG. Discussions around how it will affect things around abuse of the Internet is valid etc. etc. However let's not get into whose government is better or worse, please. Thanks, Brian Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 > -----Original Message----- > From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> On Behalf Of ox > Sent: Tuesday 29 May 2018 06:53 > To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > On Mon, 28 May 2018 12:13:32 -0700 > "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg(a)tristatelogic.com> wrote: > <snip> > > >The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation > > >of individual rights and the free Internet. > > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in > > order to be treated to this level of rubbish. > > > or read a Tweet from the President of the United States that says the evil > democratic party is responsible for the separation of little children from their > refugee parents - whereas and in truth it is the President himself that is > responsible. - And innocent little children are being "lost" by the thousands > by the American Government? > > https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/28/us/trump-immigrant-children- > lost.html > > The USA and US citizens have lost credibility or any moral high ground. > > As far as Fox news are concerned (are they the people that say "Good > Morning President Trump", when broadcasting to the US each morning?) > > As far as Internet Abuse and 'private' "researchers" are concerned: So, > private researchers have 'rights' to obtain other 'private' people's private > information? > > I cannot wait for the EU to yet again lead the world with ePrivacy as all the > USA does is dominate, control, track, divide and so many other negative > things. > > The EU has become an innovator, protector and Internet light. > > > The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world > > over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and > > idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have > > come to view it as their holy obligation to foist their demented > > notions onto the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of us like > > it or not. > > > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and > > violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and > > violation of human rights? > > wow. > > Your government loses innocent little children and you have the audacity to > lecture? > > When you take a little baby or a 2 year old (still also a baby) and LOSE that > human person? > > Have you no shame? > > With whatever respect you deserve: You cannot lecture or comment on > "state-sponsored intrigue and violation of human rights" > > As your own country is part of the problem, that others have to help you > solve and resolve. > > As for abuse and as to how this all relates to abuse: It is mostly US companies > that are infringing on the privacy of citizens of all other countries. > > I need not rehash how the top USA Internet companies abuse children, > develop technology to kill people or completely colonise and enslave > developing societies. > > or even lose the little babies they have violently dragged from the hands of > their mothers. > > Andre

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Final Decision on 2017-02
by Brian Nisbet 28 May '18

28 May '18

Colleagues, It was great to see a number of you in Marseille and to have a full and robust WG session. As you are hopefully aware Last Call for 2017-02 ended on May 25th. As there were no further discussions on the list post the Chairs declaration of rough consensus to move into the Concluding Phase, we have decided that consensus has been reached. With this we have asked the NCC to continue with the formal process and you should expect further information on this to the mailing list this week. Thank you all for your discussion of and involvement with this policy process. Brian & Tobias, Co-Chairs, RIPE Anti-Abuse Working Group Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by Brian Nisbet 28 May '18

28 May '18

It may interest you and other members of the WG to know that cases are already being brought: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/max-schrems-files-first-case… Brian Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 > -----Original Message----- > From: anti-abuse-wg [mailto:anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of > ox > Sent: 28 May 2018 12:29 > To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net > Subject: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > Hi All, > > Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade > groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR > came into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be > digital doom and gloom. > > How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) > > imnsho the very early effects of the GDPR on email spam alone has been > very positive. > This without any cases, that I know of, yet, being brought against any of the > evil companies yet. (yet being the operative word here - as I am sure, on > email spam alone, there will be cases coming) > > The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of > individual rights and the free Internet. > > The entire planet is watching the EU and with the still pending " respect for > private life and the protection of personal data in electronic communications" > (ePrivacy) being the next truly leading thing to look forward to. > > Success of the Digital Single Market Strategy in the EU will lead to > decentralised development (not to speak of empowerment) not only in the > EU, but also in Africa, China and all over the globe. This will place the control > of the Internet back in the hands of localised civil society and hopefully avoid > enslavement of humankind. > > As far as this wg is concerned, what is happening in the EU is having a very > positive impact on certain types of abuse :) > > my 1c > > Andre > > >

1 0

GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by ox 28 May '18

28 May '18

Hi All, Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom and gloom. How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) imnsho the very early effects of the GDPR on email spam alone has been very positive. This without any cases, that I know of, yet, being brought against any of the evil companies yet. (yet being the operative word here - as I am sure, on email spam alone, there will be cases coming) The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. The entire planet is watching the EU and with the still pending " respect for private life and the protection of personal data in electronic communications" (ePrivacy) being the next truly leading thing to look forward to. Success of the Digital Single Market Strategy in the EU will lead to decentralised development (not to speak of empowerment) not only in the EU, but also in Africa, China and all over the globe. This will place the control of the Internet back in the hands of localised civil society and hopefully avoid enslavement of humankind. As far as this wg is concerned, what is happening in the EU is having a very positive impact on certain types of abuse :) my 1c Andre

1 0

New e-mail abuse trends
by ox 17 May '18

17 May '18

Hi, Has anyone else noticed that some known chronic spammers (previously with their own ipv4 and listed on RBL's like webiron.net sorbs, etc. etc. - for chronic abuse) - are now relaying spam through Google (google.com) and Microsoft (Outlook.com)? The other thing I am seeing is google.com relaying for non assigned ipv6 If this is a new trend, it is interesting, no? Andre

1 0

abuse-c policy proposal in LACNIC
by JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 17 May '18

17 May '18

Hi, As I just indicated in the meeting, I've submitted a policy proposal in LACNIC (AfriNIC as well but missed the deadline for the last meeting, and coming also to APNIC in a matter of days). As I'm planning to submit it also to this WG, I will love if the people can take a look at the actual English version for the LACNIC one in order to help to have a "better" first version. This is the LACNIC link: https://politicas.lacnic.net/politicas/detail/id/LAC-2018-5?language=en Thanks! Regards, Jordi ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

1 0

Agenda Update - RIPE76 WG Meeting
by Brian Nisbet 16 May '18

16 May '18

Colleagues, I wanted to share the updated agenda for our session tomorrow. The meeting is in the Side Room at 11:00 CEST and you can attend remotely at this URL: https://ripe76.ripe.net/live/side/ A. Administrative Matters * Welcome * Scribe, Jabber, Stenography * Microphone Etiquette * Approve Minutes from RIPE 75 * Finalise agenda B. Update * B1. Working Group Chair Selection * B1. Recent List Discussion C. Policies - * C1. 2017-02 (Regular abuse-c Validation) D. Interactions - * D1. Global Abuse Community Updates - Tobias Knecht , Abusix E. Presentation - * E1. Internet Abuse by Russian LEAs, Alexander Isavnin, Internet Protection Society X. A.O.B. Z. Agenda for RIPE 77 Brian, Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270

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Re: [anti-abuse-wg] abuse of the internet by multinationals and nation states
by Gerente de Sistemas 07 May '18

07 May '18

*INTERNET* is a PRIVATE network of networks, builded by *USA* Department of Defense, Army Forces and universities, americans and europeans. *INTERNET* uses PUBLIC PROTOCOLS to allow communications betwen people and companies. *INTERNET* is NOT a POLITICAL NETWORK, and should not be treated like a POLITICAL environment - or a digital State. One of the biggest issues on *INTERNET* is the fact email is used to transport files while *FTP* is the right protocol to transport files. And NOBODY seems to care about it. This is an immense cost to operate *INTERNET.* > > "In any case, this" invisible "exercise of power under the guise of" > secret "algorithms and" proprietary "technology is extremely harmful and a > powerful weapon in the hands of the evil organization (s). > What do you mean, "in the hands of evil organizations"? Do you consider the invasion of Islam in Europe, and the NoZones in Sweden, England, Norway as "*organizations of good*"? The answer is more regulation? > What do you mean by "more regulation"? More INTERVENTION OF THE STATE IN THE PRIVATE LIFE of the people who are using the INTERNET? But is not this exactly what Cuba, China, Russia do? Not to mention the "States of Good" - Iran, Iraq, Syria and other Muslim countries? Is the answer to look more the Chinese example? > What, exactly, in the "Chinese example" is "good" for people using the INTERNET? The answer is an Internet not free? It depends on your definition of "free". There is no free lunch, and if you do not pay a fee to use the * INTERNET,* you PAY TAX in your country to pay for the *INTERNET,* as governments pay to subsidize the existence of the *INTERNET.* How do societies and societies protect their own cultures? Your own ways of > life, your own values and preserve your own freedoms? " > The "culture" of people who "buy" the "culture" of other people do not have strength (culture) in their societies to provide their own culture for their people. Americans say "cosmos" to say sidereal space and the Russians say "OK" to say they agree. *The Voice* is a "sold" program for virtually ALL CULTURES on Earth, *... Got Talent* and *X Factor* as well. What, exactly, do you mean with countries "*losing" their cultures*?" Google is a private company. You may want to refer to the creation of a Private Monopoly, as was done by the *US* Congress with the telephone. In the Clinton administration, the same *US* Congress broke the private monopoly formerly created to protect the economic interests of the inventor, forcing the private company to be sold to become a *MARKET* in the industry, since there was no longer any justification for protecting the inventor. is this what you mean? I use google but I use more *DuckDuckGo.com*, other people can do the same, but DO NOT WANT. I use *TOR* - and google does not like you to use *TOR* and HARDS access to their computers when you use *TOR* - and I invest in *MY SECURITY*. I do not use FACEBOOK or INSTAGRAM or WHATSAPP for the same reasons: my INSECURITY and the SAFETY of those companies. I do not miss the "services" that those companies offer, where YOU ARE THE PRODUCT. And the amount of people who *"sells"* their private lives easily to those companies producing PROFIT is almost 20% of the Earth's population. You mean that companies are to blame? Would not you agree if you said that the same people who give away their private lives for the easy profit of better able people are the GUILTS of their countries and their societies LOSING THEIR CULTURES? But these people have HIGH EDUCATION and money. How would you explain this? That almost 20% of Earth's population is a terrorist? Traitors of their cultures and their homelands? There are several Search Engines <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=open+source+search+engines&t=seamonkey&ia=web> that can be used in Internet Service Providers and private companies, especially in universities and mid-level schools, including government agencies, but what you see is a public university paying Google to do the documents in their academic environment. Even the university's information technology course DOES NOT DEVELOP RESEARCH in the area of textual information retrieval. "Sphinx [image: Top 5 Open Source Search Engines - Image 5] Sphinx is an open source full text search server that is programmed with relevant search quality and integration simplicity. Sphinx allows flexible testing whereby its indexing features include full support for SBCS and UTF-8 encodings, stopword removal and optional hit position removal (hitless indexing); morphology and synonym processing through word forms dictionaries and stemmers; exceptions and blended characters; and many more. Sphinx has an easy application integration that is derived from 3 different APIs. It has a native library for many programming languages, a pluggable storage engine for MySQL and an application query that uses MySQL client library and syntax. Websites such as Craigslist, Living Social, MetaCafe and Groupon has adopted Sphinx for its searches. *Programming Language:* C++ *License: *GPLv2 and commercial *Ranking of search results:* Versatile *Indexing style:* SQL database indexing and Non-SQL storage indexing." No government agency from the countries you claim to be victims of Google (and other *IT* companies) uses, or research, retrieval of textual information in their corporate environments. And most of the societies you want to protect send their brains to compete for a job in Google and *US* *IT* companies. Is this American's FAULT? Do you misuse wrong high-tech companies working together with the government of the country that they help with taxes and give them national and global MARKET SAFETY? Which government do you think companies should help? To the government of Iran? To the government of Syria? To the government of Russia? To the government of China? Are you saying that *US* high-tech companies should pay taxes to CHINA ALSO? To be "*good*"? Are you saying that *US* *IT* companies should deliver their data encryption protocols to China? To be "*good*"? "The Internet is a global network." *INTERNET* is a NETWORK of computer networks and was created in the *USA,* and is owned by the *US* government. It only exists within the territory of the *USA.* Other nations may use it if they adhere to the protocols - which are OPEN and FREE ACCESS CODE for ALL EARTH INHABITANTS. " *Use of that global network by dominant and large tech companies to**empower single country military is evil.* " The "*bad*" is not the use of a property by the owner, but those who are not owners want to have the right of the owner without doing anything for the existence of the property. What you are saying is that you are a "*homeless*" and those who have a roof have a duty to give you the roof. You could agree that there is a need for regulation to PROTECT INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS of users of the *INTERNET,* with protocols - open like the ones in the network - to verify the correct use of the network. But this is another conversation and you do not want regulation to protect INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS, you want a Digital State to intervene in national societies for IMPOR sanctions on individuals, and companies, because at the time of regular there is no distinction between person and company.

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abuse of the internet by multinationals and nation states
by ox 06 May '18

06 May '18

Hello, please may I have your thoughts, on or off list, about the evident growth in the use of the internet for abusive purposes as it relates to huge multinationals and nation states? I would like to illustrate what I am asking, with a singular example. the specific brand name should not choose to take any offense, as I could have simply replaced "Google" with Apple or with Facebook, or with Twitter, etc etc. Here the case example: =================== Factually: Google operates and dominates search and email in hundreds of countries all over the planet. of late, Google turns out to be an evil organisation that uses the world and global internet, not as an international netizen, but to power and empower a specific nation state: https://news.sky.com/story/goggle-staff-protest-against-companys-work-with-… A recent article in the NY Times suggests that Google, and all tech companies has an obligation to empower the US military as it serves the interests of American people and that such support, development and sharing with the US Government is not only expected but to be commended. From an American perspective this all makes perfect sense and is not evil at all. From a RIPE perspective (and world perspective) It is evil. Personally, I like Americans and the American people as much as I like the Chinese people, the Russians and all people from any country. But the issue is about the Internet. The Internet is a global network. Use of that global network by dominant and large tech companies to empower a single country military is evil. Further and to add to this: Google(insert name of other multinational here) also acts as a "Police" by using their search engine and email services as a weapon against both individual people as well as other companies. There is no trial, there is no court, there is no public opinion even. There is simply the biased application of convoluted and often contradictory, sometimes psychotic, "policies" These multinationals have become so powerful that they are able to digitally target individual people and in such a sublime fashion that it is not even obvious to most individuals that they are "targets". The very same "policies" that have now been amended to comply with GDPR, but if one actually reads and apply logic to the new policies, it is clear that compliance with the GDPR will not be adequate to prevent the abuse of power that multinational tech companies regularly exercise under the guise of their own "policies" So, one type of abuse is identity data, tracking and general data including fake news, the other type of abuse is to specifically give weight to negative or to specifically exclude data or information from feeds and results. Currently this type of abuse is not regulated or even discussed much at all. Anyway, this "invisible" exercise of power under the guise of "secret" algorithms and "proprietary" tech is extremely damaging and a powerful weapon in the hands of evil organisation(s) Is the answer more regulation? Is the answer to look harder at the Chinese example? Is the answer a non free Internet? How does society and different societies protect their own cultures, their own ways of life, their own values and preserve their own freedoms? The abuse of the Internet by large corporations and nations states for the purposes of information warfare (and war) is an abuse issue for a RR wg to dicuss... Andre

1 0

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] abuse of the internet by multinationals and nation states
by Name 05 May '18

05 May '18

3 2

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] abuse of the internet by multinationals and nation states
by Name 05 May '18

05 May '18

7 7

abuse of the internet by multinationals and nation states
by ox 05 May '18

05 May '18

Hello, please may I have your thoughts, on or off list, about the evident growth in the use of the internet for abusive purposes as it relates to huge multinationals and nation states? I would like to illustrate what I am asking, with a singular example. the specific brand name should not choose to take any offense, as I could have simply replaced "Google" with Apple or with Facebook, or with Twitter, etc etc. Here the case example: =================== Factually: Google operates and dominates search and email in hundreds of countries all over the planet. of late, Google turns out to be an evil organisation that uses the world and global internet, not as an international netizen, but to power and empower a specific nation state: https://news.sky.com/story/goggle-staff-protest-against-companys-work-with-… A recent article in the NY Times suggests that Google, and all tech companies has an obligation to empower the US military as it serves the interests of American people and that such support, development and sharing with the US Government is not only expected but to be commended. From an American perspective this all makes perfect sense and is not evil at all. From a RIPE perspective (and world perspective) It is evil. Personally, I like Americans and the American people as much as I like the Chinese people, the Russians and all people from any country. But the issue is about the Internet. The Internet is a global network. Use of that global network by dominant and large tech companies to empower a single country military is evil. Further and to add to this: Google(insert name of other multinational here) also acts as a "Police" by using their search engine and email services as a weapon against both individual people as well as other companies. There is no trial, there is no court, there is no public opinion even. There is simply the biased application of convoluted and often contradictory, sometimes psychotic, "policies" These multinationals have become so powerful that they are able to digitally target individual people and in such a sublime fashion that it is not even obvious to most individuals that they are "targets". The very same "policies" that have now been amended to comply with GDPR, but if one actually reads and apply logic to the new policies, it is clear that compliance with the GDPR will not be adequate to prevent the abuse of power that multinational tech companies regularly exercise under the guise of their own "policies" So, one type of abuse is identity data, tracking and general data including fake news, the other type of abuse is to specifically give weight to negative or to specifically exclude data or information from feeds and results. Currently this type of abuse is not regulated or even discussed much at all. Anyway, this "invisible" exercise of power under the guise of "secret" algorithms and "proprietary" tech is extremely damaging and a powerful weapon in the hands of evil organisation(s) Is the answer more regulation? Is the answer to look harder at the Chinese example? Is the answer a non free Internet? How does society and different societies protect their own cultures, their own ways of life, their own values and preserve their own freedoms? The abuse of the Internet by large corporations and nations states for the purposes of information warfare (and war) is an abuse issue for a RR wg to dicuss... Andre

1 0