- anti-abuse-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by Brian Nisbet 30 May '18

30 May '18

Folks, Right, nobody, right now, is talking about banning anyone. Can we all please step back from the way this conversation is going and discuss the facts around what is happening. Your opinions on governments or groups are yours, that's fine, but the discussion is not enhanced by them becoming the focus. Please remember, as I said, that this mailing list is covered by the RIPE Community Code of Conduct which is here: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/ripe-mailing-list-ripe-forum-code-of-… I would really prefer if we could ensure that everyone feels welcome to participate in discussion on this mailing list. Thanks, Brian Co-Chair, RIPE AA-WG Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 > -----Original Message----- > From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> On Behalf Of ox > Sent: Wednesday 30 May 2018 13:59 > To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > On Wed, 30 May 2018 13:37:20 +0100 > Malcolm Hutty <malcolm(a)linx.net> wrote: > > > Please stop. This is not helpful. > > > > so, what you are saying is that I should stop sending email? > or, whatever my opinions are, has to only be helpful? > > or if you say something, then it has to be accepted? > > I am a human person, I have feelings and when my feelings are insulted, I > react. I am not a particularly helpful person. > > > > But, I do not tell other people, in public, that their opinions are rubbish. > > > > In fact, I do not recall personally insulting anyone on this list, over many > years. > > I also do not compare the opinions of other people to evil people in my > country. > > I am tired of people demanding respect but treating other people like crap. > > I am tired of wolves hiding in sheep clothing. > > I am tired of being quiet. > > I am tired of people twisting words, making up fake news. > > Like you just did Malcolm, > > Simply saying: "accusations that your political opponents abduct babies" > > Without being responsible for your words. > > You should apologise Malcolm, but you will not. > > There is no reason why I should simply accept your word from on high. > > So, ban me from this wg and this email list then. Even though I have not > abused anyone. > > > ban me for taking offense, feeling hurt and speaking the truth. > > > Please do that. Show me you can? You know you want to. > > > > On 30/05/2018 13:36, ox wrote: > > > On Wed, 30 May 2018 13:06:57 +0100 > > > Malcolm Hutty <malcolm(a)linx.net> wrote: > > >> > > >> But can we please leave out accusations that your political > > >> opponents abduct babies? That surely crosses the line. The trope > > >> is, at least, > > > > > > there are no accusations of any kind. > > > > > > and, to be more clear, nobody said anything about abducting. > > > > > > Factually: > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/28/us/trump-immigrant-children- > lost. > > > html > > > > > > The USA does forcefully remove babies from the arms of their > > > mothers. > > > > > > Furthermore: The US Government does "lose" 000 these children. > > > > > > This is not accusations. And, mentioning the facts, as they are, > > > undisputed, does not cross any line. > > > > > > And who are 'political opponents' ? > > > > > > Please do bother actually reading the argument? or ask if you did > > > not understand it? > > > > > > Simply stating that, in your opinion, there are accusations and > > > abductions are pathetic in itself as it completely ignores or > > > addresses the salient fact that Ronald said my opinion is 'rubbish' > > > and that my opinion is equal to what "Fox" blasts out and "Fox" (by > > > implication, Republicans, in America states. > > > > > > It is my choice to find that offensive as by implication my opinion > > > equates that which the USA (and Fox) is promoting. > > > > > > As it disgusts me, it is an insult and it is offensive. > > > > > > > > >> Older Than Feudalism, and very likely Older Than Dirt, and as > > >> always raising it serves no purpose other than to demonise one > > >> group of people and to smear another by association, thereby > > >> shutting down the conversation. It's not an argument, it's a > > >> transparent attempt to exclude. Please stop. > > >> > > > Please stop what? Speaking the truth? > > > > > > Taking offense at people equating my opinions to rubbish? > > > > > > Please be more clear in what you are stating Malcolm? What would you > > > like to stop? > > > > > >> More generally, I believe this discussion would be improved if > > >> people stopped throwing around terms like "European" and > > >> "Republican" as though they are terms of abuse. Our community is, > > >> and should be, open to all. > > >> > > > Who said anything to the contrary? > > > > > > Andre > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

1 0

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by Malcolm Hutty 30 May '18

30 May '18

Please stop. This is not helpful. On 30/05/2018 13:36, ox wrote: > On Wed, 30 May 2018 13:06:57 +0100 > Malcolm Hutty <malcolm(a)linx.net> wrote: >> >> But can we please leave out accusations that your political opponents >> abduct babies? That surely crosses the line. The trope is, at least, > > there are no accusations of any kind. > > and, to be more clear, nobody said anything about abducting. > > Factually: > https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/28/us/trump-immigrant-children-lost.html > > The USA does forcefully remove babies from the arms of their mothers. > > Furthermore: The US Government does "lose" 000 these children. > > This is not accusations. And, mentioning the facts, as they are, > undisputed, does not cross any line. > > And who are 'political opponents' ? > > Please do bother actually reading the argument? or ask if you did not > understand it? > > Simply stating that, in your opinion, there are accusations and > abductions are pathetic in itself as it completely ignores or > addresses the salient fact that Ronald said my opinion is 'rubbish' > and that my opinion is equal to what "Fox" blasts out and "Fox" (by > implication, Republicans, in America states. > > It is my choice to find that offensive as by implication my opinion > equates that which the USA (and Fox) is promoting. > > As it disgusts me, it is an insult and it is offensive. > > >> Older Than Feudalism, and very likely Older Than Dirt, and as always >> raising it serves no purpose other than to demonise one group of >> people and to smear another by association, thereby shutting down the >> conversation. It's not an argument, it's a transparent attempt to >> exclude. Please stop. >> > Please stop what? Speaking the truth? > > Taking offense at people equating my opinions to rubbish? > > Please be more clear in what you are stating Malcolm? What would you > like to stop? > >> More generally, I believe this discussion would be improved if people >> stopped throwing around terms like "European" and "Republican" as >> though they are terms of abuse. Our community is, and should be, open >> to all. >> > Who said anything to the contrary? > > Andre > > > -- Malcolm Hutty | tel: +44 20 7645 3523 Head of Public Affairs | Read the LINX Public Affairs blog London Internet Exchange | http://publicaffairs.linx.net/ London Internet Exchange Ltd Monument Place, 24 Monument Street London EC3R 8AJ Company Registered in England No. 3137929 Trinity Court, Trinity Street, Peterborough PE1 1DA

3 2

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by Ronald F. Guilmette 30 May '18

30 May '18

ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> wrote: >Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their funded trade >groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if the GDPR came >into effect, Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital doom >and gloom. I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold. >How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly see) Be patient. The change has only just occurred. >The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation of >individual rights and the free Internet. Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish. The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not. Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain special exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches their special status at the expense of the great unwashes masses. Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it with toasts of champaign. Regards, rfg

12 34

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 29 May '18

29 May '18

Well, we disagree in the definition of abuse maybe? You can find many definitions of this: "Spamming is the abuse of electronic messaging systems to send unsolicited bulk messages, which are generally undesired" So, spam is abuse, and I don't need to know IPs to send spam. The mail server will use DNS to find them. Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 15:57 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse I am so happy that you are asking this question :) This is what causes much confusion with people, including experienced netadmins, sysadmins and many very technically advanced people. You can use any email address as an example: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Please think about it for a second: How would you go about sending spam to this email address without using an IP number? It is not possible for Internet abuse to exist - without an IP number. So, for this wg : EVERYTHING that is abuse is powered by IP numbers. Andre On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:51:38 +0200 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: > How come you can't send spam without the IP? > > I can look for new registered domains, use whois for catching the > emails that appear there, and then spam them. > > This is something that I experience everytime I register a new > domain, tons of spams to the whois recently created email contacts. > > Regards, > Jordi > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de ox > <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 15:39 > Para: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > > Please correct me if you think I am wrong: > > 1. > You cannot send spam without an IP number. > > 2. > You cannot do any abuse without an IP number. > > > I can do a whois on any.com or some.eu and have a tech or abuse > email address and WORKING registrar contact information. > > I cannot do a whois on ALL ripe assigned ipv4 resources and get > accurate and/or working resource contact information. > > > So, where the problem is - is easy to see, no? > > Andre > > > On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:12:27 +0200 > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> > wrote: > > I consider an abuse the fact of collecting emails and sending > > spam. Also, if you have a domain, you can see what IPs are > > related to it for other kinds of abuses. > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de > > ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za > > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 14:32 > > Para: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> > > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email > > abuse > > > > > > Abuse has nothing to do with a domain name. > > > > Nobody can abuse anyone armed only with a domain name. > > > > Without using an actual IP number, a domain name can do > > nothing. > > Protecting the privacy of a domain registrant is absolutely > > correct. > > The trouble is that network operators are resistant to > > accept the responsibility (costs, issues, trouble) of managing > > abuse > > Even if you do a whois right now, you will find a functional > > registrar abuse email address. > > > > The same cannot yet be said for the resources assigned by > > this RR > > Andre > > > > > > On Tue, 29 May 2018 14:00:44 +0200 > > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg > > <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: > > > Whois, as everything in the life, has good and bad things. > > > Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, when you register a new > > > domain and you associate a visible email to it, in a > > > matter of hours, you get spam. > > > Pro: If it is a real email with humans behind, it > > > facilitates the resolution of abuse cases. > > > The balance is always difficult ... > > > Regards, > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en > > > nombre de Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> > > > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 13:49 Para: Suresh > > > Ramasubramanian <ops.lists(a)gmail.com>, > > > "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Asunto: > > > Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > > > > > > > > > > > Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that helps > > > identify bad actors by means of violating privacy rights > > > of millions. There are other tools, like DNS traces, > > > reviews of hosting infrastructures used, etc. all of > > > which will continue to be available for the uses you > > > refer to. > > > > > > And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement is better > > > equipped to deal with such issues earlier and faster. Up > > > to now, governments have been afforded the luxury of > > > being able to underfund such efforts as others were doing > > > their jobs for them. Maybe this will lead to better law > > > enforcement and international cooperation. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Volker > > > > > > > > > > > > Am 29.05.2018 um 13:34 schrieb Suresh Ramasubramanian: > > > > > > This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short sighted > > > > > > > > > > > > All security practitioners protect our respective > > > services and networks against a wide variety of threats > > > including malware and phish campaigns. > > > > > > > > > > > > Very few of those go on to be referred to law enforcement > > > and that only after an extensive dossier is built > > > internally to show that the perps in question justify a - > > > frequently cross border - law enforcement action. > > > > > > > > > > > > Security and protecting user privacy go hand in hand and > > > I wish more people realised that, and maybe also realised > > > the resource and administrative lconstraints and limits > > > law enforcement is saddled with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> on > > > behalf of Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 4:06:18 PM To: > > > anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR > > > - positive effects on email abuse > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is > > > high with this one. > > > > > > Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may > > > be more difficult to detect and take action against due > > > to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that > > > tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights > > > to privacy of millions of domain owners. > > > > > > "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops > > > will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such > > > data as they will finally have to do so by legal means, > > > but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking > > > upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by > > > actual law enforcement. > > > > > > Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being > > > public will lead to better registration data for those > > > with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will > > > have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that > > > does not violate the rights of millions. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Volker > > > > > > > > > > > > Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette: > > > > ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> wrote: > > > > > > > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the > > > >> multinationals and their funded trade groups (and > > > >> their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if > > > >> the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU would > > > >> collapse and there would be digital doom and > > > >> gloom. > > > > I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer > > > > anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told > > > > everyone I know that the disappearance of public WHOIS > > > > is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was > > > > cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be > > > > increased, going forward, by tenfold. > > > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can > > > >> all clearly see) > > > > Be patient. The change has only just occurred. > > > > > > > >> The EU has truly become a world and global leader in > > > >> the reclamation of individual rights and the free > > > >> Internet. > > > > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn > > > > on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of > > > > rubbish. > > > > > > > > The only thing that has happened is that private > > > > researchers the world over have been effectively > > > > blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of > > > > europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, > > > > have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist > > > > their demented notions onto the rest of the world, > > > > whether any of the rest of us like it or not. > > > > > > > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored > > > > intrigue and violation of human rights are and shall > > > > remain totally unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as > > > > they will be the first ones to obtain special > > > > exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data. > > > > The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating > > > > the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches their > > > > special status at the expense of the great unwashes > > > > masses. > > > > > > > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and > > > > democracy, but all across the globe both criminals and > > > > statists undoubtedly celebrated it with toasts of > > > > champaign. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > rfg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > IPv4 is over > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > http://www.consulintel.es > > The IPv6 Company > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be > > privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be > > for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and > > further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, > > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even > > if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited > > and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the > > intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, > > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even > > if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, > > will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the > > original sender to inform about this communication and delete > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged > or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive > use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty > authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents > of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is > strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you > are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be > considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original > sender to inform about this communication and delete it. > > > > > ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

3 3

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by Volker Greimann 29 May '18

29 May '18

OK, let'S ban IP numbers then. Clearly they are evil! ;-) Am 29.05.2018 um 16:12 schrieb ox: > Jordi, > > This is a technical statement, it is not a pov (point of view) - it is a simple and salient fact: > > No abuse on the Internet is possible without an IP number. > > In your example: > > the mail server = the IP number. > > so the abuse originates from the mail server IP number. > > the DNS = IP number > > DNS is that service that translates names into numbers, so that you are > able to deliver your spam. > > a domain by itself can do nothing. > > hth > > Andre > > > On Tue, 29 May 2018 16:03:41 +0200 > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: > >> Well, we disagree in the definition of abuse maybe? >> >> You can find many definitions of this: >> >> "Spamming is the abuse of electronic messaging systems to send >> unsolicited bulk messages, which are generally undesired" >> >> So, spam is abuse, and I don't need to know IPs to send spam. The >> mail server will use DNS to find them. >> >> Regards, >> Jordi >> >> >> >> -----Mensaje original----- >> De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de ox >> <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za >> Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 15:57 >> Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> >> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse >> >> >> I am so happy that you are asking this question :) >> >> This is what causes much confusion with people, including >> experienced netadmins, sysadmins and many very technically advanced >> people. >> You can use any email address as an example: >> anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net >> Please think about it for a second: >> >> How would you go about sending spam to this email address without >> using an IP number? >> >> It is not possible for Internet abuse to exist - without an IP >> number. >> So, for this wg : EVERYTHING that is abuse is powered by IP >> numbers. >> Andre >> >> On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:51:38 +0200 >> JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> >> wrote: >> > How come you can't send spam without the IP? >> > >> > I can look for new registered domains, use whois for catching >> > the emails that appear there, and then spam them. >> > >> > This is something that I experience everytime I register a new >> > domain, tons of spams to the whois recently created email >> > contacts. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Jordi >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Mensaje original----- >> > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de >> > ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za >> > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 15:39 >> > Para: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> >> > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email >> > abuse >> > >> > >> > Please correct me if you think I am wrong: >> > >> > 1. >> > You cannot send spam without an IP number. >> > >> > 2. >> > You cannot do any abuse without an IP number. >> > >> > >> > I can do a whois on any.com or some.eu and have a tech or >> > abuse email address and WORKING registrar contact information. >> > >> > I cannot do a whois on ALL ripe assigned ipv4 resources and >> > get accurate and/or working resource contact information. >> > >> > >> > So, where the problem is - is easy to see, no? >> > >> > Andre >> > >> > >> > On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:12:27 +0200 >> > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg >> > <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: >> > > I consider an abuse the fact of collecting emails and >> > > sending spam. Also, if you have a domain, you can see >> > > what IPs are related to it for other kinds of abuses. >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > Jordi >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -----Mensaje original----- >> > > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en >> > > nombre de ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za >> > > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 14:32 >> > > Para: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> >> > > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on >> > > email abuse >> > > >> > > >> > > Abuse has nothing to do with a domain name. >> > > >> > > Nobody can abuse anyone armed only with a domain name. >> > > >> > > Without using an actual IP number, a domain name can >> > > do nothing. >> > > Protecting the privacy of a domain registrant is >> > > absolutely correct. >> > > The trouble is that network operators are resistant to >> > > accept the responsibility (costs, issues, trouble) of >> > > managing abuse >> > > Even if you do a whois right now, you will find a >> > > functional registrar abuse email address. >> > > >> > > The same cannot yet be said for the resources >> > > assigned by this RR >> > > Andre >> > > >> > > >> > > On Tue, 29 May 2018 14:00:44 +0200 >> > > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg >> > > <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: >> > > > Whois, as everything in the life, has good and bad >> > > > things. Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, when you >> > > > register a new domain and you associate a visible >> > > > email to it, in a matter of hours, you get spam. >> > > > Pro: If it is a real email with humans behind, it >> > > > facilitates the resolution of abuse cases. >> > > > The balance is always difficult ... >> > > > Regards, >> > > > Jordi >> > > >> > > > >> > > > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> >> > > > en nombre de Volker Greimann >> > > > <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> Fecha: martes, 29 de >> > > > mayo de 2018, 13:49 Para: Suresh Ramasubramanian >> > > > <ops.lists(a)gmail.com>, "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" >> > > > <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Asunto: Re: >> > > > [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email >> > > > abuse >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that >> > > > helps identify bad actors by means of violating >> > > > privacy rights of millions. There are other tools, >> > > > like DNS traces, reviews of hosting infrastructures >> > > > used, etc. all of which will continue to be >> > > > available for the uses you refer to. >> > > > >> > > > And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement is >> > > > better equipped to deal with such issues earlier >> > > > and faster. Up to now, governments have been >> > > > afforded the luxury of being able to underfund such >> > > > efforts as others were doing their jobs for them. >> > > > Maybe this will lead to better law enforcement and >> > > > international cooperation. >> > > > >> > > > Best, >> > > > >> > > > Volker >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Am 29.05.2018 um 13:34 schrieb Suresh >> > > > Ramasubramanian: >> > > > >> > > > This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short >> > > > sighted >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > All security practitioners protect our respective >> > > > services and networks against a wide variety of >> > > > threats including malware and phish campaigns. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Very few of those go on to be referred to law >> > > > enforcement and that only after an extensive >> > > > dossier is built internally to show that the perps >> > > > in question justify a - frequently cross border - >> > > > law enforcement action. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Security and protecting user privacy go hand in >> > > > hand and I wish more people realised that, and >> > > > maybe also realised the resource and administrative >> > > > lconstraints and limits law enforcement is saddled >> > > > with >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > From: anti-abuse-wg >> > > > <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> on behalf of >> > > > Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> Sent: >> > > > Tuesday, May 29, 2018 4:06:18 PM To: >> > > > anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] >> > > > GDPR >> > > > - positive effects on email abuse >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and >> > > > fearmongering is high with this one. >> > > > >> > > > Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. >> > > > It may be more difficult to detect and take action >> > > > against due to the loss of one tool amongst many, >> > > > but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with >> > > > as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of >> > > > domain owners. >> > > > >> > > > "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or >> > > > rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult time >> > > > to obtain such data as they will finally have to do >> > > > so by legal means, but then they are in an >> > > > untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves >> > > > functions that should be fulfilled by actual law >> > > > enforcement. >> > > > >> > > > Ultimately, private data if internet users no >> > > > longer being public will lead to better >> > > > registration data for those with a right to access >> > > > it. Those with no such rights will have to figure >> > > > out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not >> > > > violate the rights of millions. >> > > > >> > > > Best, >> > > > >> > > > Volker >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. >> > > > Guilmette: >> > > > > ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the >> > > > >> multinationals and their funded trade groups (and >> > > > >> their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that >> > > > >> if the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU >> > > > >> would collapse and there would be digital doom >> > > > >> and gloom. >> > > > > I am not a multinational. I am an individual >> > > > > volunteer anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- >> > > > > have told everyone I know that the disappearance >> > > > > of public WHOIS is and will be an epic >> > > > > catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the >> > > > > Internet before, it will be increased, going >> > > > > forward, by tenfold. >> > > > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as >> > > > >> we can all clearly see) >> > > > > Be patient. The change has only just occurred. >> > > > > >> > > > >> The EU has truly become a world and global >> > > > >> leader in the reclamation of individual rights >> > > > >> and the free Internet. >> > > > > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to >> > > > > turn on Fox News in order to be treated to this >> > > > > level of rubbish. >> > > > > >> > > > > The only thing that has happened is that private >> > > > > researchers the world over have been effectively >> > > > > blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of >> > > > > europeans... europeans who, in their religious >> > > > > fervor, have come to view it as their holy >> > > > > obligation to foist their demented notions onto >> > > > > the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of >> > > > > us like it or not. >> > > > > >> > > > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored >> > > > > intrigue and violation of human rights are and >> > > > > shall remain totally unfettered and unaffected by >> > > > > GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain >> > > > > special exemptions allowing them to continue to >> > > > > see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are >> > > > > undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as >> > > > > it further entrenches their special status at the >> > > > > expense of the great unwashes masses. >> > > > > >> > > > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and >> > > > > democracy, but all across the globe both >> > > > > criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated it >> > > > > with toasts of champaign. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Regards, >> > > > > rfg >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ********************************************** >> > > IPv4 is over >> > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? >> > > http://www.consulintel.es >> > > The IPv6 Company >> > > >> > > This electronic message contains information which may be >> > > privileged or confidential. The information is intended >> > > to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named >> > > above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, >> > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >> > > information, even if partially, including attached files, >> > > is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal >> > > offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware >> > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the >> > > contents of this information, even if partially, >> > > including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be >> > > considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the >> > > original sender to inform about this communication and >> > > delete it. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ********************************************** >> > IPv4 is over >> > Are you ready for the new Internet ? >> > http://www.consulintel.es >> > The IPv6 Company >> > >> > This electronic message contains information which may be >> > privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be >> > for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and >> > further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, >> > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even >> > if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited >> > and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the >> > intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, >> > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even >> > if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, >> > will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the >> > original sender to inform about this communication and delete >> > it. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ********************************************** >> IPv4 is over >> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >> http://www.consulintel.es >> The IPv6 Company >> >> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged >> or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive >> use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty >> authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents >> of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is >> strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you >> are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if >> partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be >> considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original >> sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >> >> >> >> >> > -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann(a)key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann(a)key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.

2 1

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by Michele Neylon - Blacknight 29 May '18

29 May '18

Andre 1 - yes and no - you need access to an SMTP server. 2 - again - you need access to resources I agree however that the domain without anything attached to it can't do anything The resources need IPs.. Re: RIPE whois - if there are inaccuracies you can report them to RIPE. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ http://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 On 29/05/2018, 14:39, "anti-abuse-wg on behalf of ox" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net on behalf of andre(a)ox.co.za> wrote: Please correct me if you think I am wrong: 1. You cannot send spam without an IP number. 2. You cannot do any abuse without an IP number. I can do a whois on any.com or some.eu and have a tech or abuse email address and WORKING registrar contact information. I cannot do a whois on ALL ripe assigned ipv4 resources and get accurate and/or working resource contact information. So, where the problem is - is easy to see, no? Andre On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:12:27 +0200 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: > I consider an abuse the fact of collecting emails and sending spam. > Also, if you have a domain, you can see what IPs are related to it > for other kinds of abuses. > > Regards, > Jordi > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de ox > <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 14:32 > Para: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > > Abuse has nothing to do with a domain name. > > Nobody can abuse anyone armed only with a domain name. > > Without using an actual IP number, a domain name can do nothing. > > Protecting the privacy of a domain registrant is absolutely > correct. > The trouble is that network operators are resistant to accept the > responsibility (costs, issues, trouble) of managing abuse > > Even if you do a whois right now, you will find a functional > registrar abuse email address. > > The same cannot yet be said for the resources assigned by this RR > > Andre > > > On Tue, 29 May 2018 14:00:44 +0200 > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> > wrote: > > Whois, as everything in the life, has good and bad things. > > Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, when you register a new > > domain and you associate a visible email to it, in a matter of > > hours, you get spam. > > Pro: If it is a real email with humans behind, it facilitates > > the resolution of abuse cases. > > The balance is always difficult ... > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de > > Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> Fecha: martes, 29 > > de mayo de 2018, 13:49 Para: Suresh Ramasubramanian > > <ops.lists(a)gmail.com>, "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" > > <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - > > positive effects on email abuse > > > > > > > > Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that helps identify > > bad actors by means of violating privacy rights of millions. > > There are other tools, like DNS traces, reviews of hosting > > infrastructures used, etc. all of which will continue to be > > available for the uses you refer to. > > > > And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement is better > > equipped to deal with such issues earlier and faster. Up to > > now, governments have been afforded the luxury of being able to > > underfund such efforts as others were doing their jobs for > > them. Maybe this will lead to better law enforcement and > > international cooperation. > > > > Best, > > > > Volker > > > > > > > > Am 29.05.2018 um 13:34 schrieb Suresh Ramasubramanian: > > > > This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short sighted > > > > > > > > All security practitioners protect our respective services and > > networks against a wide variety of threats including malware and > > phish campaigns. > > > > > > > > Very few of those go on to be referred to law enforcement and > > that only after an extensive dossier is built internally to > > show that the perps in question justify a - frequently cross > > border - law enforcement action. > > > > > > > > Security and protecting user privacy go hand in hand and I wish > > more people realised that, and maybe also realised the resource > > and administrative lconstraints and limits law enforcement is > > saddled with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> on behalf > > of Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> Sent: Tuesday, > > May 29, 2018 4:06:18 PM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net > > Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email > > abuse > > > > > > > > Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high > > with this one. > > > > Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be > > more difficult to detect and take action against due to the > > loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was > > illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of > > millions of domain owners. > > > > "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will > > indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they > > will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in > > an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions > > that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement. > > > > Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being > > public will lead to better registration data for those with a > > right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to > > figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not > > violate the rights of millions. > > > > Best, > > > > Volker > > > > > > > > Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette: > > > ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> wrote: > > > > > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and > > >> their funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted > > >> from the rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, > > >> Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital > > >> doom and gloom. > > > I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer > > > anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I > > > know that the disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an > > > epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the Internet > > > before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold. > > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all > > >> clearly see) > > > Be patient. The change has only just occurred. > > > > > >> The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the > > >> reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. > > > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox > > > News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish. > > > > > > The only thing that has happened is that private researchers > > > the world over have been effectively blinded due to the > > > supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in > > > their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy > > > obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of > > > the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not. > > > > > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue > > > and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally > > > unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first > > > ones to obtain special exemptions allowing them to continue > > > to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly > > > celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches > > > their special status at the expense of the great unwashes > > > masses. > > > > > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but > > > all across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly > > > celebrated it with toasts of champaign. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > rfg > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged > or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive > use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty > authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents > of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is > strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you > are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be > considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original > sender to inform about this communication and delete it. > > > > >

2 1

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 29 May '18

29 May '18

How come you can't send spam without the IP? I can look for new registered domains, use whois for catching the emails that appear there, and then spam them. This is something that I experience everytime I register a new domain, tons of spams to the whois recently created email contacts. Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 15:39 Para: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse Please correct me if you think I am wrong: 1. You cannot send spam without an IP number. 2. You cannot do any abuse without an IP number. I can do a whois on any.com or some.eu and have a tech or abuse email address and WORKING registrar contact information. I cannot do a whois on ALL ripe assigned ipv4 resources and get accurate and/or working resource contact information. So, where the problem is - is easy to see, no? Andre On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:12:27 +0200 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: > I consider an abuse the fact of collecting emails and sending spam. > Also, if you have a domain, you can see what IPs are related to it > for other kinds of abuses. > > Regards, > Jordi > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de ox > <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 14:32 > Para: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > > Abuse has nothing to do with a domain name. > > Nobody can abuse anyone armed only with a domain name. > > Without using an actual IP number, a domain name can do nothing. > > Protecting the privacy of a domain registrant is absolutely > correct. > The trouble is that network operators are resistant to accept the > responsibility (costs, issues, trouble) of managing abuse > > Even if you do a whois right now, you will find a functional > registrar abuse email address. > > The same cannot yet be said for the resources assigned by this RR > > Andre > > > On Tue, 29 May 2018 14:00:44 +0200 > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> > wrote: > > Whois, as everything in the life, has good and bad things. > > Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, when you register a new > > domain and you associate a visible email to it, in a matter of > > hours, you get spam. > > Pro: If it is a real email with humans behind, it facilitates > > the resolution of abuse cases. > > The balance is always difficult ... > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de > > Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> Fecha: martes, 29 > > de mayo de 2018, 13:49 Para: Suresh Ramasubramanian > > <ops.lists(a)gmail.com>, "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" > > <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - > > positive effects on email abuse > > > > > > > > Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that helps identify > > bad actors by means of violating privacy rights of millions. > > There are other tools, like DNS traces, reviews of hosting > > infrastructures used, etc. all of which will continue to be > > available for the uses you refer to. > > > > And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement is better > > equipped to deal with such issues earlier and faster. Up to > > now, governments have been afforded the luxury of being able to > > underfund such efforts as others were doing their jobs for > > them. Maybe this will lead to better law enforcement and > > international cooperation. > > > > Best, > > > > Volker > > > > > > > > Am 29.05.2018 um 13:34 schrieb Suresh Ramasubramanian: > > > > This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short sighted > > > > > > > > All security practitioners protect our respective services and > > networks against a wide variety of threats including malware and > > phish campaigns. > > > > > > > > Very few of those go on to be referred to law enforcement and > > that only after an extensive dossier is built internally to > > show that the perps in question justify a - frequently cross > > border - law enforcement action. > > > > > > > > Security and protecting user privacy go hand in hand and I wish > > more people realised that, and maybe also realised the resource > > and administrative lconstraints and limits law enforcement is > > saddled with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> on behalf > > of Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> Sent: Tuesday, > > May 29, 2018 4:06:18 PM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net > > Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email > > abuse > > > > > > > > Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high > > with this one. > > > > Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be > > more difficult to detect and take action against due to the > > loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was > > illegal to begin with as it violated the rights to privacy of > > millions of domain owners. > > > > "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will > > indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they > > will finally have to do so by legal means, but then they are in > > an untenable position anyway, taking upon themselves functions > > that should be fulfilled by actual law enforcement. > > > > Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being > > public will lead to better registration data for those with a > > right to access it. Those with no such rights will have to > > figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that does not > > violate the rights of millions. > > > > Best, > > > > Volker > > > > > > > > Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette: > > > ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> wrote: > > > > > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and > > >> their funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted > > >> from the rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, > > >> Internet in the EU would collapse and there would be digital > > >> doom and gloom. > > > I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer > > > anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I > > > know that the disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an > > > epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime on the Internet > > > before, it will be increased, going forward, by tenfold. > > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all > > >> clearly see) > > > Be patient. The change has only just occurred. > > > > > >> The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the > > >> reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. > > > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox > > > News in order to be treated to this level of rubbish. > > > > > > The only thing that has happened is that private researchers > > > the world over have been effectively blinded due to the > > > supreme arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in > > > their religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy > > > obligation to foist their demented notions onto the rest of > > > the world, whether any of the rest of us like it or not. > > > > > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue > > > and violation of human rights are and shall remain totally > > > unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first > > > ones to obtain special exemptions allowing them to continue > > > to see WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly > > > celebrating the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches > > > their special status at the expense of the great unwashes > > > masses. > > > > > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but > > > all across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly > > > celebrated it with toasts of champaign. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > rfg > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged > or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive > use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty > authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents > of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is > strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you > are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be > considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original > sender to inform about this communication and delete it. > > > > > ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

2 1

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 29 May '18

29 May '18

I consider an abuse the fact of collecting emails and sending spam. Also, if you have a domain, you can see what IPs are related to it for other kinds of abuses. Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 14:32 Para: <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse Abuse has nothing to do with a domain name. Nobody can abuse anyone armed only with a domain name. Without using an actual IP number, a domain name can do nothing. Protecting the privacy of a domain registrant is absolutely correct. The trouble is that network operators are resistant to accept the responsibility (costs, issues, trouble) of managing abuse Even if you do a whois right now, you will find a functional registrar abuse email address. The same cannot yet be said for the resources assigned by this RR Andre On Tue, 29 May 2018 14:00:44 +0200 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> wrote: > Whois, as everything in the life, has good and bad things. > Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, when you register a new domain and > you associate a visible email to it, in a matter of hours, you get > spam. > Pro: If it is a real email with humans behind, it facilitates the > resolution of abuse cases. > The balance is always difficult ... > Regards, > Jordi > > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> en nombre de > Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo > de 2018, 13:49 Para: Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists(a)gmail.com>, > "anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net> Asunto: Re: > [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > > > Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that helps identify bad > actors by means of violating privacy rights of millions. There are > other tools, like DNS traces, reviews of hosting infrastructures > used, etc. all of which will continue to be available for the uses > you refer to. > > And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement is better equipped to > deal with such issues earlier and faster. Up to now, governments have > been afforded the luxury of being able to underfund such efforts as > others were doing their jobs for them. Maybe this will lead to better > law enforcement and international cooperation. > > Best, > > Volker > > > > Am 29.05.2018 um 13:34 schrieb Suresh Ramasubramanian: > > This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short sighted > > > > All security practitioners protect our respective services and > networks against a wide variety of threats including malware and > phish campaigns. > > > > Very few of those go on to be referred to law enforcement and that > only after an extensive dossier is built internally to show that the > perps in question justify a - frequently cross border - law > enforcement action. > > > > Security and protecting user privacy go hand in hand and I wish more > people realised that, and maybe also realised the resource and > administrative lconstraints and limits law enforcement is saddled > with > > > > > > > > From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> on behalf of > Volker Greimann <vgreimann(a)key-systems.net> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, > 2018 4:06:18 PM To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > > > Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is high with > this one. > > Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may be more > difficult to detect and take action against due to the loss of one > tool amongst many, but ultimately that tool was illegal to begin with > as it violated the rights to privacy of millions of domain owners. > > "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops will indeed > have a more difficult time to obtain such data as they will finally > have to do so by legal means, but then they are in an untenable > position anyway, taking upon themselves functions that should be > fulfilled by actual law enforcement. > > Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being public > will lead to better registration data for those with a right to > access it. Those with no such rights will have to figure out > alternate routes to do their jobs that does not violate the rights of > millions. > > Best, > > Volker > > > > Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette: > > ox <andre(a)ox.co.za> wrote: > > > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the multinationals and their > >> funded trade groups (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the > >> rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU > >> would collapse and there would be digital doom and gloom. > > I am not a multinational. I am an individual volunteer anti-abuse > > researcher. And yet even -I- have told everyone I know that the > > disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be an epic catastrophy. > > If there was cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be > > increased, going forward, by tenfold. > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can all clearly > >> see) > > Be patient. The change has only just occurred. > > > >> The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the > >> reclamation of individual rights and the free Internet. > > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News > > in order to be treated to this level of rubbish. > > > > The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the > > world over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme > > arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their > > religious fervor, have come to view it as their holy obligation to > > foist their demented notions onto the rest of the world, whether > > any of the rest of us like it or not. > > > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and > > violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered > > and unaffected by GDPR, as they will be the first ones to obtain > > special exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data. > > The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating the arrival > > of GDPR, as it further entrenches their special status at the > > expense of the great unwashes masses. > > > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and democracy, but all > > across the globe both criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated > > it with toasts of champaign. > > > > > > Regards, > > rfg > > > ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

2 1

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
by Brian Nisbet 29 May '18

29 May '18

Folks, GDPR is a valid subject for this WG. Discussions around how it will affect things around abuse of the Internet is valid etc. etc. However let's not get into whose government is better or worse, please. Thanks, Brian Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 > -----Original Message----- > From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> On Behalf Of ox > Sent: Tuesday 29 May 2018 06:53 > To: anti-abuse-wg(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse > > On Mon, 28 May 2018 12:13:32 -0700 > "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg(a)tristatelogic.com> wrote: > <snip> > > >The EU has truly become a world and global leader in the reclamation > > >of individual rights and the free Internet. > > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn on Fox News in > > order to be treated to this level of rubbish. > > > or read a Tweet from the President of the United States that says the evil > democratic party is responsible for the separation of little children from their > refugee parents - whereas and in truth it is the President himself that is > responsible. - And innocent little children are being "lost" by the thousands > by the American Government? > > https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/28/us/trump-immigrant-children- > lost.html > > The USA and US citizens have lost credibility or any moral high ground. > > As far as Fox news are concerned (are they the people that say "Good > Morning President Trump", when broadcasting to the US each morning?) > > As far as Internet Abuse and 'private' "researchers" are concerned: So, > private researchers have 'rights' to obtain other 'private' people's private > information? > > I cannot wait for the EU to yet again lead the world with ePrivacy as all the > USA does is dominate, control, track, divide and so many other negative > things. > > The EU has become an innovator, protector and Internet light. > > > The only thing that has happened is that private researchers the world > > over have been effectively blinded due to the supreme arogance and > > idiocy of europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor, have > > come to view it as their holy obligation to foist their demented > > notions onto the rest of the world, whether any of the rest of us like > > it or not. > > > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored intrigue and > > violation of human rights are and shall remain totally unfettered and > > violation of human rights? > > wow. > > Your government loses innocent little children and you have the audacity to > lecture? > > When you take a little baby or a 2 year old (still also a baby) and LOSE that > human person? > > Have you no shame? > > With whatever respect you deserve: You cannot lecture or comment on > "state-sponsored intrigue and violation of human rights" > > As your own country is part of the problem, that others have to help you > solve and resolve. > > As for abuse and as to how this all relates to abuse: It is mostly US companies > that are infringing on the privacy of citizens of all other countries. > > I need not rehash how the top USA Internet companies abuse children, > develop technology to kill people or completely colonise and enslave > developing societies. > > or even lose the little babies they have violently dragged from the hands of > their mothers. > > Andre

2 1

Final Decision on 2017-02
by Brian Nisbet 28 May '18

28 May '18

Colleagues, It was great to see a number of you in Marseille and to have a full and robust WG session. As you are hopefully aware Last Call for 2017-02 ended on May 25th. As there were no further discussions on the list post the Chairs declaration of rough consensus to move into the Concluding Phase, we have decided that consensus has been reached. With this we have asked the NCC to continue with the formal process and you should expect further information on this to the mailing list this week. Thank you all for your discussion of and involvement with this policy process. Brian & Tobias, Co-Chairs, RIPE Anti-Abuse Working Group Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet(a)heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270

1 0