ugh, english. I do not mean external as in outside I meant external as in not allocated. for example: complaint received about 147g8oobra912cx47.com versus a HIJACKING complaint received about apple.com my argument would be that; as 147Goobra912cX.com is not allocated, any complaints about such a resource is outside the scope of any administrative authority - and ianal, but, some of what Nick Hilliard said, may apply. Same as abuse BY a resource, when what Nick Hilliard said, may also apply. The main point is that; Because: "hijacking" of a domain name (or any resource) is a direct administrative issue (this is factual - as per my previous post) BUT abuse BY a domain name (or any resource) is not necessarily an administrative issue at all (this is debatable/opinion) - as you said "some" TLD responds some do not...and RIPE NCC is not the Internet Police.... So, anyway, as 2019-03 deals with hijacking, this entire over reach argument is factually not relevant at all and, more so: 2019-03 not proceeding would be counter to the ethical administration of resources, a dereliction of responsibility and a breach of trust implied in any such administration (as well as administrative authority) On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 08:20:01 +0000 Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
They either find out for themselves or someone else points it out to them. In either case their responsibility continues if what you say holds good
--srs
________________________________ From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of ac <ac@main.me> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2019 1:44 PM To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] 2019-03 and over-reach
some of what the wg discusses are opinions and some things are scientific facts.
scientific facts may change as environments and other variables change, but currently it is so that;
there is NO TLD registry that will allow the ongoing random hijacking of domain names (under that TLD of course)
as, this would mean that the TLD does not need to exist at all and/or it will not have any trust/value.
RIPE NCC though, is factually a resource administrative authority.
As such, it does need to administer resources and an integral part of that resource administration is the core responsibility implied by such administration itself and the balance of exercising such authority with the implied and direct responsibility of any such administration.
Factually, the authority to allocate (or not) is administrative.
I think (my opinion) is that the confusion arises due to whether a resource (whether it be a domain name, ip number, etc) is allocated, or not. When resources are allocated the administrative responsibility is not degraded, in fact a very strong argument could be made that the inverse is true: Allocated resources increases the level of administrative authority, responsibility and all of the administration aspects themselves.
Now, TLD (or RIPE NCC) managing **"external"** complaints about direct abuse, is, imho, outside the scope of an administrative authority and would be the scenario Nick Hilliard refers to. Then again, this is my opinion, so I may be completely wrong (or not) :)
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 07:27:40 +0000 Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
There's also the interesting comparison of how some TLD registries - many of them - act on canceling spam and phish domains while others go to every extreme not to do so.
--srs
________________________________ From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of ac <ac@main.me> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2019 11:16 AM To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] 2019-03 and over-reach
On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 17:13:20 +0000 Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> wrote:
Regarding over-reach, the RIPE NCC was instituted as a numbering registry and as a supporting organisation for the RIPE Community, whose terms of reference are described in the RIPE-1 document. The terms of reference make it clear that the purpose of the RIPE Community and the RIPE NCC is internet co-ordination and - pointedly - not enforcement. Proposal 2019-03 goes well outside the scope of what the RIPE Community and the RIPE NCC were constituted to do, and I do not believe that the Anti Abuse working group has the authority to override this.
the wg is not overriding anything. 2019-03 is about removing resources, in much the same way as same resources would have been removed for payment. (RIPE NCC accounts person would "judge" that there was no payment and resources would be affected)
Just because there is a decision it does not mean that such a decision
is "law enforcement" or judicial.
2019-03 is administrative
and not legal/law/judicial
The second point relates to the long term consequences of the proposal. If the RIPE Community were to pass this policy, then it would direct the RIPE NCC to act as both a judiciary and policing agency for internet abuse. Judgement and enforcement of behaviour are the competence of national governments, courts and law
No. You are saying the same thing, though eloquently, in a different way and trying to link it to some future potential hijacking by gov of RIR.
It is not much of a decision that RIPE NCC has to make either as:
1. There was hijacking
OR
2. There was no hijacking
Whether it was accidental, ongoing for long period of time and all the other technical and scientific facts, this may require some sort of interpretation of facts.
But, not whether it actually happened or not.
But, this is not how to handle the problem of BGP hijacking. Even if it had the slightest possibility of making any difference at a technical level (which it won't), the proposal would set the RIPE Community and the RIPE NCC down a road which I believe would be extremely unwise to take from a legal and political point of view, and which would be difficult, if not impossible to manoeuver out of.
ianal, NCC legal will surely evaluate the legal aspects, but practically every new shell company that has to deal with compliance and other issues is just another layer in the onion.