Re: [anti-abuse-wg] 2019-03 and over-reach
Hi, On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 12:27:32PM +0200, ac wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 18:04:22 +0800 Lu Heng <h.lu@anytimechinese.com> wrote:
It???s very much like electricity company tell you if you do something bad we will cut you off and stop supply electricity.and yes, they will cut you if you stop paying them, but that doesn???t mean they can
they also cut if you cheat by stealing electricity.
But they will not cut you off if you use the electricity in ways that your neighbours do not like. And this is where things start getting complicated. A and B have a contract. B does something C does not like (but which is legal). Why should that affect A? Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
El 23/3/19 12:17, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de Gert Doering" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de gert@space.net> escribió: Hi, On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 12:27:32PM +0200, ac wrote: > On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 18:04:22 +0800 > Lu Heng <h.lu@anytimechinese.com> wrote: > > > > It???s very much like electricity company tell you if you do something > > bad we will cut you off and stop supply electricity.and yes, they > > will cut you if you stop paying them, but that doesn???t mean they can > > they also cut if you cheat by stealing electricity. But they will not cut you off if you use the electricity in ways that your neighbours do not like. And this is where things start getting complicated. A and B have a contract. B does something C does not like (but which is legal). Why should that affect A? Because A, B and C are under the same membership organization, which rules (our policies) that indicate that what B is doing is against those rules and the organization contract clearly indicates that you're bound to them? Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
Just recalled this example. Yesterday night, looking a research TV program on craft beer. I learnt that there is an association for craft beer producers and one of the rules was that if you have a sharing from an industrial beer producer, you are automatically expelled from the association. It was mention because the case of one of those craft beer producers that got 50% of their shares acquired. Courts of course, respected the decision. Regards, Jordi El 23/3/19 12:22, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> escribió: El 23/3/19 12:17, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de Gert Doering" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de gert@space.net> escribió: Hi, On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 12:27:32PM +0200, ac wrote: > On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 18:04:22 +0800 > Lu Heng <h.lu@anytimechinese.com> wrote: > > > > It???s very much like electricity company tell you if you do something > > bad we will cut you off and stop supply electricity.and yes, they > > will cut you if you stop paying them, but that doesn???t mean they can > > they also cut if you cheat by stealing electricity. But they will not cut you off if you use the electricity in ways that your neighbours do not like. And this is where things start getting complicated. A and B have a contract. B does something C does not like (but which is legal). Why should that affect A? Because A, B and C are under the same membership organization, which rules (our policies) that indicate that what B is doing is against those rules and the organization contract clearly indicates that you're bound to them? Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 12:29:21PM +0100, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg wrote:
I learnt that there is an association for craft beer producers and one of the rules was that if you have a sharing from an industrial beer producer, you are automatically expelled from the association.
This is not even remotely comparable. If they are expelled from a craft beer association it simply means they are not members of the association anymore. It does *not* mean they cannot get barley, hops or water anymore (except, theoretically, on another continent) Being expelled from the RIPE NCC means, in practical terms, that one cannot conduct one's business in the RIPE Service Region anymore. Why do you think a member would just lie down and take that rather than using any means available to ensure its survival? rgds, SL
El 23/3/19 12:46, "Sascha Luck [ml]" <aawg@c4inet.net> escribió: On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 12:29:21PM +0100, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg wrote: >I learnt that there is an association for craft beer producers and one of the rules was that if you have a sharing from an industrial beer producer, you are automatically expelled from the association. This is not even remotely comparable. If they are expelled from a craft beer association it simply means they are not members of the association anymore. It does *not* mean they cannot get barley, hops or water anymore (except, theoretically, on another continent) Exactly, the vendors for barley, hops, etc., can also decide if they want to sell them or not. Being expelled from the RIPE NCC means, in practical terms, that one cannot conduct one's business in the RIPE Service Region anymore. Why do you think a member would just lie down and take that rather than using any means available to ensure its survival? The peers can decide also if, in addition to the warning or decision from the RIR, they want to keep the peering or transit. If I don't want to accept a customer, I've the right to do so. If I'm in a membership organization that helps me to decide and provide info about bad behaviors, I will be very happy. I know, you're taking it to the monopoly situation that Nick described, which I've already answered with my views. I think regulators know we are doing well and not acting against bad things will make them to intervene, not in the other way around. rgds, SL ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 01:02:15PM +0100, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg wrote:
Exactly, the vendors for barley, hops, etc., can also decide if they want to sell them or not.
Different case, in this analogy, the NCC is the ONLY vendor for the necessary goods.
If I don't want to accept a customer, I've the right to do so. If I'm in a membership organization that helps me to decide and provide info about bad behaviors, I will be very happy.
Then do become a member of such an organisation, who's stopping you? Do not abuse the dominant position of the RIPE NCC to act as a "black list".
I think regulators know we are doing well and not acting against bad things will make them to intervene, not in the other way around.
This sounds like explaining the police to a 5yo child. Adults know better than to rely on moral judgments like this. rgds, SL
In message <20190323114600.GL99066@cilantro.c4inet.net>, "Sascha Luck [ml]" <aawg@c4inet.net> wrote:
Being expelled from the RIPE NCC means, in practical terms, that one cannot conduct one's business in the RIPE Service Region
I, for one, and VERY dismayed to hear of this obviously tragic development. When did this happen? Who is responsible? Who broke the Internet?
participants (4)
-
Gert Doering -
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ -
Ronald F. Guilmette -
Sascha Luck [ml]