Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Need policy to require abuse contacts to accept abuse reports
Marilson wrote: "In fact it's a bit laborious but very very EASY. Just report once, with evidence. If the spammer repeat, the Provider needs to be alerted, with evidence." What is very easy? Report to whom? I report to the ISP's registered abuse address, and the registerd abuse address bounces the report back to me. I report to RIPE NCC that the ISP registered a fake abuse address, and RIPE NCC tells me they will do nothing. I suggest to RIPE NCC that RIPE policy should be changed to require a truthful abuse address which will really accept reports about the ISP's spams, and RIPE NCC advises me to post the suggestion here. "If a small percentage of victims of abuse act that way" Then the spam-dedicated ISP will continue spamming and will continue bouncing victims' reports back to victims. RIPE NCC will continue doing nothing about reports that ISPs registered fake abuse contacts. This group here will continue setting expectations straight: nothing will be done. Sorry I wasted time, but I don't even understand what Marilson is trying to suggest.
On 26/09/2016 09:31, Norman Diamond wrote:
Sorry I wasted time, but I don't even understand what Marilson is trying to suggest.
I'm not sure if anyone does. I certainly don't, despite their ongoing opinion that they understand all the dark motives behind everything I do. Anyway, Shane is, as he often is, essentially correct here. I would love to say that a policy could be written and that it would have a major effect, however I do not actually believe that. The real world, sadly, doesn't work like that. Shane raises some excellent questions and I would love to hear your opinions on them. I'd also love to hear what others, on both sides of the conversation, have to say about them. It is perhaps through such a dialogue, that, maybe, the beginnings of a policy might be made. As operators (and, of course, users) we stand between multiple forces. The good actors already feel they are doing what they can and, sadly, good abuse desks don't drag in customers. Law enforcement are looking over shoulders and while relations are excellent in many places, they don't make the laws that they have to enforce. And if operators don't seem to be doing anything, will that generate more laws? I really don't want to say "This will never happen." But unless we can come up with something sensible and workable, it won't. So I am not going to put the burden of this task on you, Norman, but nor can I take it up myself. I would love to hear your opinions, and those of others, and perhaps, baby-step by baby-step, we can continue to improve things, even if the end result is not what we envisaged in the beginning. Thanks, Brian
Many of the problems start with what abuse is. Having discussions around something which means different things to different people is a problem in itself. This is not an abuse discussion group about abuse - I have been on this list for ten? years now and this is a support group that makes the people who post here "feel better" So, to be clear - we do nothing about abuse - this is an emotional support group... I need to feel better about recent "abuse" that happened yesterday... Hetzner.de threatened to suspend a server of mine (with hundreds of domains hosted) simply because one domain owner published a single sentence (among thousands of sentences) which a different person claimed to own copyright to the written sentence. My client claims they wrote the sentence themselves and the other party claims that the sentence was copied from their website. My client has a published book, which pre dates the other parties website - but my client only published on the Internet recently Hetzner.de ruled in favor of the complainant as they do not have access to the book. I was instructed: remove the web page or they suspend the entire server. I do not have access to my clients web content - so I had to delete the whole client domain. Anyway, ISP's have now become courts of law and they are the prosecutors, judges and there is no jury ISP's do not know what abuse is and some ISP's try so hard to be ethical that they are becoming demagogues and dictators. But they of course THINK they are ethical and moral... meanwhile: copyright infringement IS NOT ABUSE! - It may be illegal, theft, crime, etc BUT - It is NOT Internet Abuse! See? Andre On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 10:10:38 +0100 Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> wrote:
On 26/09/2016 09:31, Norman Diamond wrote:
Sorry I wasted time, but I don't even understand what Marilson is trying to suggest.
I'm not sure if anyone does. I certainly don't, despite their ongoing opinion that they understand all the dark motives behind everything I do.
Anyway, Shane is, as he often is, essentially correct here. I would love to say that a policy could be written and that it would have a major effect, however I do not actually believe that. The real world, sadly, doesn't work like that.
Shane raises some excellent questions and I would love to hear your opinions on them. I'd also love to hear what others, on both sides of the conversation, have to say about them. It is perhaps through such a dialogue, that, maybe, the beginnings of a policy might be made.
As operators (and, of course, users) we stand between multiple forces. The good actors already feel they are doing what they can and, sadly, good abuse desks don't drag in customers. Law enforcement are looking over shoulders and while relations are excellent in many places, they don't make the laws that they have to enforce. And if operators don't seem to be doing anything, will that generate more laws?
I really don't want to say "This will never happen." But unless we can come up with something sensible and workable, it won't.
So I am not going to put the burden of this task on you, Norman, but nor can I take it up myself. I would love to hear your opinions, and those of others, and perhaps, baby-step by baby-step, we can continue to improve things, even if the end result is not what we envisaged in the beginning.
Thanks,
Brian
participants (3)
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Brian Nisbet -
Norman Diamond -
ox