Cooperation Working Group
Thursday, 30 October 2008, Dubai
A. Administrative Matters
Patrik Fältström introduced himself as Chair for this meeting, as the
two official Co-Chairs were unable to attend RIPE 57.
He also noted some confusion about the name of the Jabber room.
Two items were added to the agenda, under the A.O.B. item. These were
presentations by Daniel Karrenberg and Jim Reid, and were added under
A.O.B. as the Co-Chairs had already approved the existing agenda.
Malcolm Hutty noted the closure of the Enhanced Cooperation Task
Force, and its instruction for the Cooperation Working Group to
maintain the document produced by the task force. Discussion of this
matter was added as a third item under A.O.B.
The participants in the room introduced themselves over the microphone.
B. Open Comment/Review of Working Group Charter
The Chair read out the charter in its current form.
The participants endorsed the charter.
C. Addressing the Rise of Criminal Service Providers - Paul Hoare,
Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA)
The speaker discussed the issue of criminal activity by Internet
Service Providers and how it might be policed.
Jim Reid raise a question about whether criminal ISPs could have
their RIPE NCC membership terminated as a form of sanction, and how
effective this would be as a deterrence, given that the ISP would
already have the IP resources. Paul agreed that there remain issues,
but that the RIPE NCC could remove reverse DNS services, and the
ranges could be handed to a group such as a white-hat organisation
who could also announce the ranges, which would degrade the
connectivity of the criminal ISP. Jim also noted that there the
routing database and the deployment of routing security could be a
two-way street, in that the original holder (the criminal ISP) might
have a certificate associated with those resources, making it
difficult to disrupt their connectivity. Paul agreed that there were
many issues, and encouraged anyone with further suggestions to
contact him, noting that the RIPE NCC could provide his contact
details. He also noted that if the Internet community could regulate
this area successfully, it might remove the need or temptation for
government to step in and regulate.
Daniel Karrenberg noted the term "crime caused by the Internet", and
the danger of thinking that by fixing the Internet we can fix crime,
whereas the Internet is simply a tool for certain crimes because it
has enormous reach, it can rapidly disseminate material throughout
the world and because it transcends jurisdictions. Technical
solutions can only be a small part of a larger strategy in fighting
crime. Paul agreed, noting that the Internet, like any technological
development, presents new opportunities to criminals and we should
try to restrict these opportunities.
Daniel noted that the RIPE NCC's power is limited in terms of
physically preventing criminal ISPs from using the Internet, but that
this forum should be used to reach out to all ISPs, who collectively
have the means to disable these rogue ISPs. He also noted that the
RIPE NCC cannot be judge and executioner at the same time, but noted
that SOCA is working with the Dutch law enforcement community in
sorting this out. He emphasised that there should not be a focus on
the RIPE NCC as the head of a hierarchical structure. Paul agreed and
reiterated that he is primarily seeking suggestions and solutions.
Jaap Akerhuis noted that in the domain name business there are also
moves to have registries take down rogue sites, but that there is not
a lot that can be done. Paul noted the large number of countries in
the RIPE community and that gaining consensus from all these
countries is difficult. There are issues of where free speech ends
and crime begins. He reiterated the problems of cross-jurisdictional
crime, though there are some crimes, such as pedophilia, that are
widely accepted. He noted that there is no final solution to remove
crime from the Internet, but that slowing them down is still an
important goal.
Malcolm Hutty noted that, supposing RIPE NCC could knock an ISP off
the network, what kind of cooperation and approval would be necessary
to obtain from national authorities in the relevant territory. He
noted that several years ago UK CEOs were being arrested in the USA
for gambling sites that were situated in the UK, and that there would
be similar issues between countries within the RIPE region. Paul
noted that in many cases SOCA would simply work with authorities in
the relevant country, by approaching them and asking them to do
something themselves.
D. Update on RIPE NCC Outreach Activities
RIPE NCC Government Roundtable Meeting, ICANN GAC and IGF 2008
preparations.
There was no discussion.
E. IPv6: What Should Governments Do? Patrik Fältström
Patrik noted that the current deployment of IPv6 is not going well,
what can be done about this and the role that government can play in
that.
There was no discussion.
Z. A.O.B./Q&A Session
Daniel Karrenberg – Presentation from the Address Policy Working
Group on Address Depletion Scenarios
Daniel pointed the WG to some work being done in the Address Policy
WG on policies about the end of IPv4. He asked whether governments
were concerned about the scenarios that were raised in his presentation.
Jim Reid noted that in terms of "perceived unfairness", some
governments in the region are actually saying that there is already
unfairness in the distribution of IP addresses.
Nurani Nimpuno noted that there are policy proposals in the works
that address these issues in various ways, and that governments
should be aware that this is not an issue that is being neglected.
Daniel agreed that there are proposals that address part of this
issue, but not all of it.
Jim Reid - NTIA Open Consultation About Signing of the Root - Report
on Work Being Done in the DNS Working Group
Jim noted that the US Department of Commerce has asked for comments
about signing the DNS root zone, and the DNS Working Group is
preparing a statement, as they have in the past pushed for this. The
WG has nearly completed this statement, and hopes to present it at
the Closing Plenary, and that this can then be accepted as a RIPE
community statement. It states basically that this is about the
authenticity of the data in the DNS root, not about some overt form
of control.
There was no discussion.
Enhanced Cooperation Task Force Document – What To Do?
Malcolm noted that the document created by the Enhanced Cooperation
Task Force (EC TF) consists of two parts, one recommending the
establishment of this Working Group, the other explaining how the
RIPE community works, what bottom-up governance is and why we have
these processes in place. It is essentially a communications
document. It was decided that a statement from the RIPE community to
this effect would be useful to underpin the current system. It is now
hoped that this document could go through the appropriate RIPE PDP
steps to become a RIPE Document.
Rob Bokzijl noted that there is no need for any further formalities
as the document has gone through the appropriate RIPE Task Force
steps. Paul Rendek noted that any revisions should be showcased in
this Working Group.
Action point: The RIPE NCC is directed to create a new RIPE Document
and place it on the WG website. Malcolm is appointed as the contact
for any final edits.
Meeting closed.
/Maria
