Q: What is the latest trend in Internet connectivity offerings?
Hi all, as asked in ISOC survey, it seems there are a few big players who dominate Internet connectivity market, more and more convoluted with telephone. Here in Italy, for reasons beyond my understanding, you are bound to get a residential connection unless you have a VAT number. I really cannot understand the rationale for that, and it looks to me as a gratuitous limitation of individual freedom. Personally, I'm unable to get a non-filtered, static IP connection since I closed my VAT account (after my tax preparer's recommendation). I'll probably have to give up running my own email server. In addition, I've never been able to get IPv6 addresses --perhaps that needs a fiscal reform, eh? Is it that way all over Europe, or is it just Italy? Can anyone shed some light on why it is so? TIA Ale
Alessandro,
Here in Italy, for reasons beyond my understanding, you are bound to get a residential connection unless you have a VAT number. I really cannot understand the rationale for that, and it looks to me as a gratuitous limitation of individual freedom.
Have you asked your provider(s) for a rationale or justification?
Is it that way all over Europe, or is it just Italy?
Even the meanings of "residential" and "business" connections vary from provider to provider. You can definitely get unfiltered (and IPv6) "residential" connections here in The Netherlands. Julf
On 22 Jun 2016, at 11:31, Johan Helsingius <julf@julf.com> wrote:
Here in Italy, for reasons beyond my understanding, you are bound to get a residential connection unless you have a VAT number. I really cannot understand the rationale for that, and it looks to me as a gratuitous limitation of individual freedom.
Have you asked your provider(s) for a rationale or justification?
Julf, when RIPE meeting was in Rome 4-5 years ago, we had to provide copies of our passports to use some city-wide free wi-fi service. I think this was because of Italian law, possibly to help the cops keep track of who was using which IP address.
Den 2016-06-22 kl. 12:41, skrev Jim Reid:
On 22 Jun 2016, at 11:31, Johan Helsingius <julf@julf.com> wrote:
Here in Italy, for reasons beyond my understanding, you are bound to get a residential connection unless you have a VAT number. I really cannot understand the rationale for that, and it looks to me as a gratuitous limitation of individual freedom. Have you asked your provider(s) for a rationale or justification? Julf, when RIPE meeting was in Rome 4-5 years ago, we had to provide copies of our passports to use some city-wide free wi-fi service. I think this was because of Italian law, possibly to help the cops keep track of who was using which IP address.
I traveled to Tuscany a few times and we always buy prepayed mobil internet. I always have to show my passport to buy that. The same in Spain last 3 times I've been there. /bengan
So - for reasons beyond our collective understanding? - silly demands are yet again made on people who want to use the Internet? I wish it were as simple as to ask for a rationale or justification. Although that is a very good place to start. But some of this is so embedded in certain a cultures it can be impossible to fight for most individuals. So you need allies. It might be worthwhile exploring how we could collectively do something there. My own thing was when I looked at registering a domain name under dotSE. As an individual you have to give them a copy of your government-issued "personal identification number”. But if you are not Swedish then any old government-related number would appear to do. Does not matter which government. Does not matter if it a personal identity number. Does not matter if they can check it or not - probably they cannot. I have no idea why they need this. But somehow they really-really need a little number for that field. Duh! Gordon PS At EuroDIG we had to show our passports (after the security check) to pick up our badge and t-shirt.
On 22 Jun 2016, at 12:57, Bengt Gördén <bengan@resilans.se> wrote:
Den 2016-06-22 kl. 12:41, skrev Jim Reid:
On 22 Jun 2016, at 11:31, Johan Helsingius <julf@julf.com> wrote:
Here in Italy, for reasons beyond my understanding, you are bound to get a residential connection unless you have a VAT number. I really cannot understand the rationale for that, and it looks to me as a gratuitous limitation of individual freedom. Have you asked your provider(s) for a rationale or justification? Julf, when RIPE meeting was in Rome 4-5 years ago, we had to provide copies of our passports to use some city-wide free wi-fi service. I think this was because of Italian law, possibly to help the cops keep track of who was using which IP address.
I traveled to Tuscany a few times and we always buy prepayed mobil internet. I always have to show my passport to buy that. The same in Spain last 3 times I've been there.
/bengan
On 22 Jun 2016, at 15:07, Gordon Lennox wrote:
My own thing was when I looked at registering a domain name under dotSE. As an individual you have to give them a copy of your government-issued "personal identification number”. But if you are not Swedish then any old government-related number would appear to do. Does not matter which government. Does not matter if it a personal identity number. Does not matter if they can check it or not - probably they cannot. I have no idea why they need this. But somehow they really-really need a little number for that field.
And in Denmark the registry requite mandatory validation of that ID-thing -- but only if you use the Danish ID, not otherwise. Go figure. In Sweden we managed to kill those ideas at least. In a more sensitive environment (I think) it would be a responsibility for the registrar to know who the customer (and domain holder / user) actually is, but nope. That is not how the registrar agreements are written. The current situation makes it impossible for a registrar to say "I know this person". The difference between what one have to do and how to implement it is not very easy to understand sometimes. paf
This really sounds like the case of the piratebay, where they tried to sue people over the simple fact that they were mentioned in the whois registry as the "contact person". In Holland the ISP tends to shield themselves a lot by telling the lobbies that they are nothing but data carriers, which in return caused them to get sued for copyright infringement. They are bound by law NOT to give any information about their customers to (private) lobby organisations, unless you come with a legal document requesting them to hand over your personal information. However most ISP's will forward emails sent to them. Concerning registering yourself before you can use a network is something that is governmental-related. In case of problems they can point at you as the culprit. However, since anyone can register a domain, you can also set up a mule that buys the domain while you keep ownership of that domain, or buy a postbox company in the Seychelles? The onliest thing that links an IP to a person is the endpoint. Other than that, there is no possible way to verify someone. The same way that companies try to validate someone by "sending an SMS". Anyone can get a free phone number on a SIP server and use that to "verify" themselves, That is how I have gotten an american phone number from Google and how I call customer support in the USA... The registry should be a "best guess" method, or they should do the same thing as banks and Facebook and start "enforcing" the fact that you should give out a copy of your ID card, and make sure that the ID card is valid and holds the same data as you entered on your account. Its a false sense of security when people can give out a random number and the registry will accept it without questioning the legality of it. Julius On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 3:27 PM Patrik Fältström <paf@frobbit.se> wrote:
On 22 Jun 2016, at 15:07, Gordon Lennox wrote:
My own thing was when I looked at registering a domain name under dotSE. As an individual you have to give them a copy of your government-issued "personal identification number”. But if you are not Swedish then any old government-related number would appear to do. Does not matter which government. Does not matter if it a personal identity number. Does not matter if they can check it or not - probably they cannot. I have no idea why they need this. But somehow they really-really need a little number for that field.
And in Denmark the registry requite mandatory validation of that ID-thing -- but only if you use the Danish ID, not otherwise.
Go figure.
In Sweden we managed to kill those ideas at least.
In a more sensitive environment (I think) it would be a responsibility for the registrar to know who the customer (and domain holder / user) actually is, but nope. That is not how the registrar agreements are written. The current situation makes it impossible for a registrar to say "I know this person".
The difference between what one have to do and how to implement it is not very easy to understand sometimes.
paf
Thanks for all replies. I note none of them came from Italy or Spain... On Wed 22/Jun/2016 16:11:00 +0200 Julius ter Pelkwijk wrote:
Concerning registering yourself before you can use a network is something that is governmental-related. In case of problems they can point at you as the culprit. However, since anyone can register a domain, you can also set up a mule that buys the domain while you keep ownership of that domain, or buy a postbox company in the Seychelles?
There have been several privacy-safeguarding improvements in residential connections. I welcome them. Requiring a VAT number is different, though. Every Italian citizen has a fiscal code, which is as good as a VAT number for identification purposes. Yet, after years, one of my connection providers still invoices me using my expired VAT number. Could that be rooted in 11-digit VAT numbers vs 16-byte alphanumeric fiscal codes? Hmm... not in this millennium, I'd say. I'd rule out specific laws, because the other connection provider I have did switch to fiscal code invoicing upon request to do so. However, I doubt they would have offered me that contract if I hadn't have a VAT number at the time. A third provider, who promised me everything over the phone last month, retracted all /after having laid new fiber cables to my office/, saying they cannot do their "microbusiness" contract without VAT number. They invoiced me zero euro for missing the deal. Others just quit the conversation as they hear about no VAT number. Note that residential lines, which I use too, are somewhat cheaper for "physical persons" than for businesses. The only high level manager I spoke with dismissed the argument as obvious, saying "Every provider does so". "You mean in Italy?!" I objected. He said yes.
The onliest thing that links an IP to a person is the endpoint. Other than that, there is no possible way to verify someone. The same way that companies try to validate someone by "sending an SMS". Anyone can get a free phone number on a SIP server and use that to "verify" themselves, That is how I have gotten an american phone number from Google and how I call customer support in the USA...
Postmaster.live.com used to check enlisting requests by (also) writing to WHOIS contacts. Many methods can enforce one another. And yes, it is something of a pita to switch provider on a mail server.
The registry should be a "best guess" method, or they should do the same thing as banks and Facebook and start "enforcing" the fact that you should give out a copy of your ID card, and make sure that the ID card is valid and holds the same data as you entered on your account. Its a false sense of security when people can give out a random number and the registry will accept it without questioning the legality of it.
Agreed. BTW, bank payments, along with email addresses, make for trusted IDs. Erogo ergo sum. I don't think FB wants to gain the same level of accountability as, say, PayPal, as an informal ID certifier. Ale
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participants (8)
-
Alessandro Vesely -
Bengt Gördén -
Gergana Petrova -
Gordon Lennox -
Jim Reid -
Johan Helsingius -
Julius ter Pelkwijk -
Patrik Fältström