Hello. Erika's mention of the need "to decrease the gap in the dialogue between governments and the technical community" and a current thread on the bind-users mailing list made me wonder whether the report I mention in the message below is as well known as I think it deserves to be outside the DNS technical community and certain parts of the wider French Internet community. Best regards, Niall O'Reilly Begin forwarded message:
From: Niall O'Reilly <Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie> Date: 30 October 2013 10:16:26 GMT To: bind-check@telenet.be Cc: bind-users@lists.isc.org Subject: Re: use bind 9.8 as caching server and authoritative nameserver message-id: <80951A6D-89DE-4C4B-A6DB-B4516EDFA9D9@ucd.ie>
On 28 Oct 2013, at 13:10, bind-check@telenet.be wrote:
Recently our government obligated all ISP's to block access to child-porn, illegal betting sites, illegal file share sites etc... I have been asked now to implement this on our caching DNS servers (serve a custom zone to all of our customers that points to an IP from the government that hosts a block-page)
You probably understand that this approach is of limited effectiveness, and has arguably significant disadvantages.
It may be of interest for you to read the report mentioned at either of the following URIs (in French, English respectively).
http://www.afnic.fr/fr/l-afnic-en-bref/actualites/actualites-generales/6573/... http://www.afnic.fr/en/about-afnic/news/general-news/6584/show/the-afnic-sci...
Best regards,
Niall O'Reilly Member of AFNIC's Conseil Scientifique
PS. I wan't a significant contributor to this report. Credit for that belongs to the colleagues who did the work. /Niall
On 30 Oct 2013, at 10:27, Niall O'Reilly <Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie> wrote:
I think it deserves to be outside the DNS technical community and certain parts of the wider French Internet community.
Indeed. However I'm unsure if this WG is the place for that as it probably won't reach that wider French(?) Internet community. Or those who are responsible for making regulations and laws in this area. The OP on bind-users had a Belgian email address BTW. That said, it would be worthwhile for this WG to try to develop something that explains the advantages and disadvantages of various approaches to traffic/content blocking: eg DNS tricks, various forms of blacklisting, DPI, etc, etc. There are laws and regulations on this topic popping up all over the RIPE service region and IMO it would be good if we could produce a document for legislators, law enforcement, IPR lawyers, etc.
Jim, Niall & all - On 30.10.2013 11:48, Jim Reid wrote:
On 30 Oct 2013, at 10:27, Niall O'Reilly <Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie> wrote:
I think it deserves to be outside the DNS technical community and certain parts of the wider French Internet community.
Indeed. However I'm unsure if this WG is the place for that as it probably won't reach that wider French(?) Internet community. Or those who are responsible for making regulations and laws in this area. The OP on bind-users had a Belgian email address BTW.
That said, it would be worthwhile for this WG to try to develop something that explains the advantages and disadvantages of various approaches to traffic/content blocking: eg DNS tricks, various forms of blacklisting, DPI, etc, etc. There are laws and regulations on this topic popping up all over the RIPE service region and IMO it would be good if we could produce a document for legislators, law enforcement, IPR lawyers, etc.
one indeed can only wonder why such approaches that do *NOT* solve the underlying problmes keep popping up ever again. And why even worse these approaches are still turned into binding regulation and/or legislation despite their effectlessness. It's like fighting poverty by putting up foldings screens around the homeless: out of sight, problem solved. We have had the same discussion in Germany inlcuding a law that the new coalition (after the 2009 federal elections) asked for it not to be applied before the law got finally cancelled in December 2011. *) In particular eco, Germany's ISP association, fought it heavily for obvious reasons. I'd assume that the arguments brought forward three years ago are still very vaild and could form a basis for the suggested document. Best, -C. *) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugangserschwerungsgesetz
On 30 Oct 2013, at 10:48, Jim Reid wrote:
That said, it would be worthwhile for this WG to try to develop something that explains the advantages and disadvantages of various approaches to traffic/content blocking: eg DNS tricks, various forms of blacklisting, DPI, etc, etc. There are laws and regulations on this topic popping up all over the RIPE service region and IMO it would be good if we could produce a document for legislators, law enforcement, IPR lawyers, etc.
Absolutely. That's the kind of thing I had in mind, and felt it didn't need spelling out. Some of the work has been done by the French colleagues. This WG should take advantage of that. ATB /Niall
On 30 Oct 2013, at 10:48, Jim Reid wrote: > That said, it would be worthwhile for this WG to try to develop something that explains the advantag es and disadvantages of various approaches to traffic/content blocking: eg DNS tricks, various forms of blacklisting, DPI, etc, etc. There are laws and regulations on this topic popping up all over the RIPE service region and IMO it would be good if we could produce a document for legislators, law enforcement, IPR lawyers, etc. Absolutely. That's the kind of thing I had in mind, and felt it didn't need spelling out. Some of the work has been done by the French colleagues. This WG should take advantage of that. If you do that, one should also look at the "SSAC Advisory on Impacts of Content Blocking via the Domain Name System", SAC056 <http://www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents/sac-056-en.pdf>. jaap
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 9:41 AM, Jaap Akkerhuis <jaap@nlnetlabs.nl> wrote:
On 30 Oct 2013, at 10:48, Jim Reid wrote:
> That said, it would be worthwhile for this WG to try to develop something that explains the advantag es and disadvantages of various approaches to traffic/content blocking: eg DNS tricks, various forms of blacklisting, DPI, etc, etc. There are laws and regulations on this topic popping up all over the RIPE service region and IMO it would be good if we could produce a document for legislators, law enforcement, IPR lawyers, etc.
Absolutely. That's the kind of thing I had in mind, and felt it didn't need spelling out.
Some of the work has been done by the French colleagues. This WG should take advantage of that.
If you do that, one should also look at the "SSAC Advisory on Impacts of Content Blocking via the Domain Name System", SAC056 <http://www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents/sac-056-en.pdf>.
jaap
Also, the IAB's draft "Technical Considerations for Internet Service Blocking and Filtering" covers DNS-based as well as other types of filtering. <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-filtering-considerations-04>
we wrote something on this theme this year in Russian http://rkn.gov.ru/docs/Analysys_and_recommendations_comments_fin.pdf http://rkn.gov.ru/press/speech/news19960.htm based mostly on IETF draft approach, previous discussoins and partly OFCOM paper On 30 Oct 2013, at 14:48, Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com> wrote:
On 30 Oct 2013, at 10:27, Niall O'Reilly <Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie> wrote:
I think it deserves to be outside the DNS technical community and certain parts of the wider French Internet community.
Indeed. However I'm unsure if this WG is the place for that as it probably won't reach that wider French(?) Internet community. Or those who are responsible for making regulations and laws in this area. The OP on bind-users had a Belgian email address BTW.
That said, it would be worthwhile for this WG to try to develop something that explains the advantages and disadvantages of various approaches to traffic/content blocking: eg DNS tricks, various forms of blacklisting, DPI, etc, etc. There are laws and regulations on this topic popping up all over the RIPE service region and IMO it would be good if we could produce a document for legislators, law enforcement, IPR lawyers, etc.
Hello, On 30/10/2013 11:48, Jim Reid wrote:
That said, it would be worthwhile for this WG to try to develop something that explains the advantages and disadvantages of various approaches to traffic/content blocking: eg DNS tricks, various forms of blacklisting, DPI, etc, etc. There are laws and regulations on this topic popping up all over the RIPE service region and IMO it would be good if we could produce a document for legislators, law enforcement, IPR lawyers, etc.
I would like to bring to your attention a brand new document by the Attorney General of the Court of Justice of the European Community, Cruz Villalón, regarding the compatibility of web-blocking measures with EU law [1]. Unfortunately at time of writing there is not an English version, so I link here a blog post with some English excerpts too [2]. In the text he says: 82. It should be ensured that the blocking measure is specifically aimed at the origin of the violation and there is no risk to block access to licit content. 86. It is not excluded that a full implementation of the ban in question is impossible from a purely practical point of view. (rough translation from the Italian version) IMO this document and Cruz Villalón's opinions may be used as a good starting point to underline failures of many blocking measures and to get ideas for any technical document this WG would produce. Best regards, 1) http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=144944&pageIndex=0&doclang=DE&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=305207 2) http://radiobruxelleslibera.wordpress.com/2013/11/26/europe-suggests-more-re... -- Pier Carlo Chiodi http://about.me/piercarlo.chiodi
On 26/11/2013 19:37, Pier Carlo Chiodi wrote:
I would like to bring to your attention a brand new document by the Attorney General of the Court of Justice of the European Community, Cruz Villalón, regarding the compatibility of web-blocking measures with EU law [1].
Unfortunately at time of writing there is not an English version, so I link here a blog post with some English excerpts too [2].
There is still no english translation of this document. This is very peculiar. Nick
On 26/11/2013 19:37, Pier Carlo Chiodi wrote:
Unfortunately at time of writing there is not an English version, so I link here a blog post with some English excerpts too [2].
finally in the last week or two they've come out with the english version of Villalón's opinion:
separate to this, the ECJ has issued their opinion today:
There's a summary on Innocenzo Genna's blog:
http://radiobruxelleslibera.wordpress.com/2014/03/27/web-blocking-and-copyri...
(thanks to Marco d'Itri for the link and to Innocenzo for the excellent content). Nick
All - anyone willing to take the lead for this? Best, -C. On 30.10.2013 11:27, Niall O'Reilly wrote:
Hello.
Erika's mention of the need "to decrease the gap in the dialogue between governments and the technical community" and a current thread on the bind-users mailing list made me wonder whether the report I mention in the message below is as well known as I think it deserves to be outside the DNS technical community and certain parts of the wider French Internet community.
Best regards, Niall O'Reilly
I have already been talking to folk in the Council of Europe in Strasbourg on this, among other things. Their focus is on cross-border / human rights. Gordon On 7 Nov, 2013, at 16:00, Carsten Schiefner <ripe-wgs.cs@schiefner.de> wrote:
All -
anyone willing to take the lead for this?
Best,
-C.
On 30.10.2013 11:27, Niall O'Reilly wrote:
Hello.
Erika's mention of the need "to decrease the gap in the dialogue between governments and the technical community" and a current thread on the bind-users mailing list made me wonder whether the report I mention in the message below is as well known as I think it deserves to be outside the DNS technical community and certain parts of the wider French Internet community.
Best regards, Niall O'Reilly
May I for domain blocking with the help of DNS also recommend reading of SSAC document SAC-050 and SAC-056: <http://www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents> Patrik Fältström SSAC Chair On 7 nov 2013, at 19:29, Gordon Lennox <gordon.lennox.13@gmail.com> wrote:
I have already been talking to folk in the Council of Europe in Strasbourg on this, among other things. Their focus is on cross-border / human rights.
Gordon
On 7 Nov, 2013, at 16:00, Carsten Schiefner <ripe-wgs.cs@schiefner.de> wrote:
All -
anyone willing to take the lead for this?
Best,
-C.
On 30.10.2013 11:27, Niall O'Reilly wrote:
Hello.
Erika's mention of the need "to decrease the gap in the dialogue between governments and the technical community" and a current thread on the bind-users mailing list made me wonder whether the report I mention in the message below is as well known as I think it deserves to be outside the DNS technical community and certain parts of the wider French Internet community.
Best regards, Niall O'Reilly
A bit +1 to Niall's call for sharing more technical clarity with policymakers (and the world). This seems like a very positive direction for this group. An overall suggestion -- I think it would make sense to frame such as document as an examination of content blocking (pertinent social issue whose importance is clear to people who may not know what DNS is). After announcing the scope, we then enumerate the technical issues (explain DNS!) and methods and concerns. I.e. create a technical guide to a politically/socially relevant issue, making it easier for non-experts to recognize its importance, and recognize how to profitably connect the information contained to pending decisions (etc.). With that, I would be happy to help whoever leads pull together a draft, but I don't have the expertise to lead drafting. Cheers, Meredith On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Patrik Fältström <paf@frobbit.se> wrote:
May I for domain blocking with the help of DNS also recommend reading of SSAC document SAC-050 and SAC-056:
<http://www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents>
Patrik Fältström SSAC Chair
On 7 nov 2013, at 19:29, Gordon Lennox <gordon.lennox.13@gmail.com> wrote:
I have already been talking to folk in the Council of Europe in Strasbourg on this, among other things. Their focus is on cross-border / human rights.
Gordon
On 7 Nov, 2013, at 16:00, Carsten Schiefner <ripe-wgs.cs@schiefner.de> wrote:
All -
anyone willing to take the lead for this?
Best,
-C.
On 30.10.2013 11:27, Niall O'Reilly wrote:
Hello.
Erika's mention of the need "to decrease the gap in the dialogue
between governments and the technical community"
and a current thread on the bind-users mailing list made me wonder
whether the report I mention in the message
below is as well known as I think it deserves to be outside the
DNS technical community and certain parts of the
wider French Internet community.
Best regards, Niall O'Reilly
-- Meredith Whittaker Program Manager, Google Research Google NYC
On 7 Nov 2013, at 20:53, Meredith Whittaker <meredithrachel@google.com> wrote:
An overall suggestion -- I think it would make sense to frame such as document as an examination of content blocking (pertinent social issue whose importance is clear to people who may not know what DNS is). After announcing the scope, we then enumerate the technical issues (explain DNS!) and methods and concerns. I.e. create a technical guide to a politically/socially relevant issue, making it easier for non-experts to recognize its importance, and recognize how to profitably connect the information contained to pending decisions (etc.).
Good idea! I suggest starting by examining the documents already mentioned (by Dima, Patrik, Jaap and me), one or more of which may already match the need, or come close. I know that the AFNIC doc was prepared with a view to being accessible to policy-makers rather than just technical experts. I have to confess that I am not yet familiar with the others. Let's not invent more of this wheel than we have to! VBR Niall
Morning, all - On 08.11.2013 00:05, Niall O'Reilly wrote:
Let's not invent more of this wheel than we have to!
let's see what we have so far: Niall / AFNIC: http://www.afnic.fr/en/about-afnic/news/general-news/6584/show/the-afnic-sci... Jaap, paf / SSAC: http://www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents/sac-056-en.pdf Richard, Marco / IAB: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-filtering-considerations-04 Dima: http://rkn.gov.ru/docs/Analysys_and_recommendations_comments_fin.pdf http://rkn.gov.ru/press/speech/news19960.htm [both in Russian] Carsten / eco, German ISPA: [yet to be dug up] Best, -C.
On 08 Nov 2013, at 11:57, Carsten Schiefner <ripe-wgs.cs@schiefner.de> wrote:
Morning, all -
On 08.11.2013 00:05, Niall O'Reilly wrote:
Let's not invent more of this wheel than we have to!
let's see what we have so far:
Niall / AFNIC: http://www.afnic.fr/en/about-afnic/news/general-news/6584/show/the-afnic-sci...
Jaap, paf / SSAC: http://www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents/sac-056-en.pdf
Richard, Marco / IAB: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-filtering-considerations-04
this text should be updated - a lot of editor's mistakes
Dima: http://rkn.gov.ru/docs/Analysys_and_recommendations_comments_fin.pdf http://rkn.gov.ru/press/speech/news19960.htm [both in Russian]
ofcom analysys document can be used but carefully - I can't agree with some points http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/foi/2011/october/1-186872101-attac...
Carsten / eco, German ISPA: [yet to be dug up]
Best,
-C.
All, On 08.11.2013 08:57, Carsten Schiefner wrote:
Carsten / eco, German ISPA: [yet to be dug up]
no URLs, but PDFs - please find them attached. Best, -C.
Dear Cooperation working group members, Il 07/11/2013 21:53, Meredith Whittaker ha scritto:
With that, I would be happy to help whoever leads pull together a draft, but I don't have the expertise to lead drafting.
as I have already anticipated in another thread, I finally completed a document about web blocking measures for law enforcement purposes. I tried to put together suggestions and hints taken from this mailing list and from documents herein reported. If you believe it's appropriate, it could be reviewed and maybe used as a starting point to eventually produce a RIPE NCC guide, in order to support legislators and stakeholders decisions; otherwise, it will be just another document about the topic! :) I share the document on Google Drive (replace FILE_ID with 0B2tYFe9mK9YfcGFUWkxEaldMdDg): https://drive.google.com/file/d/FILE_ID/edit?usp=sharing In case, just let me know how we can proceed with revisions. My two cents. Best regards, -- Pier Carlo Chiodi http://pierky.com/aboutme The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of any organization, entity or committee to which I may hold a position.
Hi Pier, First of all a very happy 2014 ! And thank you very much for that contribution ! (and sorry for the late reply) Papers setting out to a non-technical audience how basic elements of the Internet work are very welcome indeed. They help bridge the gap between those developing policy and those understanding the technical ins and outs of the Internet! I hope you will get some useful feedback! Let me start by referring to a document Ofcom produced a while back: http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/internet/site-blocking.pdf Kind regards, Alain On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Pier Carlo Chiodi <pc.chiodi@gmail.com>wrote:
Dear Cooperation working group members,
Il 07/11/2013 21:53, Meredith Whittaker ha scritto:
With that, I would be happy to help whoever leads pull together a draft,
but I don't have the expertise to lead drafting.
as I have already anticipated in another thread, I finally completed a document about web blocking measures for law enforcement purposes.
I tried to put together suggestions and hints taken from this mailing list and from documents herein reported. If you believe it's appropriate, it could be reviewed and maybe used as a starting point to eventually produce a RIPE NCC guide, in order to support legislators and stakeholders decisions; otherwise, it will be just another document about the topic! :)
I share the document on Google Drive (replace FILE_ID with 0B2tYFe9mK9YfcGFUWkxEaldMdDg):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/FILE_ID/edit?usp=sharing
In case, just let me know how we can proceed with revisions.
My two cents.
Best regards,
-- Pier Carlo Chiodi http://pierky.com/aboutme
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of any organization, entity or committee to which I may hold a position.
Hi Alain,
First of all a very happy 2014 !
best wishes for a great new year to you and all the coop-wg members :)
I hope you will get some useful feedback!
Goals of my draft are definitely ambitious; I hope it will be helpful to whoever wants to contribute writing a RIPE official document to support policy makers in content filtering decisions.
Let me start by referring to a document Ofcom produced a while back: http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/internet/site-blocking.pdf
Thanks for the link, I already considered that document and drew inspiration from it for some considerations; I also reported it in the "Further Reading" section of my work. Best regards, -- Pier Carlo Chiodi http://pierky.com/aboutme The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of any organization, entity or committee to which I may hold a position.
In message <CANeNdNL1Vuegi9_HJpRSLNj-Rn4SC8kqX=Kv1jHNwwPu+Xrs9Q@mail.gmail.com>, at 18:04:39 on Wed, 22 Jan 2014, Alain Van Gaever <avangaev@gmail.com> writes
Let me start by referring to a document Ofcom produced a while back: http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/internet/site-blocking.pdf
In case list subscribers are unaware, it is now the case that UK ISPs block access to Pirate Bay. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17894176 -- Roland Perry
Alain, Pier, all, Apologies for my late reply to Alain's question -- this thread got buried over vacation. I wasn't able to access Pier's document (I get a message claiming it doesn't exist). But I am really happy to see progress on this topic, and I am eager to read the draft. I think it's right to start with maybe a more technical (specific and accurate) draft, then refine and distill to reach something legible to policymakers and others. There may also be value in producing a more technical guide to this topic that can inform those who are interested, who have the background, but who may not know the domain-specific details that could be gathered from the RIPE brain trust. Thoughts? Cheers, Meredith On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 3:49 PM, Roland Perry < roland@internetpolicyagency.com> wrote:
In message <CANeNdNL1Vuegi9_HJpRSLNj-Rn4SC8kqX=Kv1jHNwwPu+Xrs9Q@ mail.gmail.com>, at 18:04:39 on Wed, 22 Jan 2014, Alain Van Gaever < avangaev@gmail.com> writes
Let me start by referring to a document Ofcom produced a while back:
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/internet/site-blocking.pdf
In case list subscribers are unaware, it is now the case that UK ISPs block access to Pirate Bay.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17894176 -- Roland Perry
-- Meredith Whittaker Program Manager, Google Research Google NYC
Hello Meredith, hello all, Il 24/01/2014 16:46, Meredith Whittaker ha scritto:
(I get a message claiming it doesn't exist). But I am really happy to see progress on this topic, and I am eager to read the draft.
I'm sorry for that, I pasted an URL split in two parts to prevent web crawlers from indexing the document since it's only a draft. Here it is; please add 0B2tYFe9mK9YfcGFUWkxEaldMdDg after the "&id=" parameter: https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=
I think it's right to start with maybe a more technical (specific and accurate) draft, then refine and distill to reach something legible to policymakers and others.
My draft is quite long, it covers a lot of topics, even if I tried to keep them as simple as possible; I think it should definitely be summarized by someone used to speak to policymakers. Regards, -- Pier Carlo Chiodi http://pierky.com/aboutme The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of any organization, entity or committee to which I may hold a position.
On 7 jan 2014, at 19:23, Pier Carlo Chiodi <pc.chiodi@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Cooperation working group members,
Il 07/11/2013 21:53, Meredith Whittaker ha scritto:
With that, I would be happy to help whoever leads pull together a draft, but I don't have the expertise to lead drafting.
as I have already anticipated in another thread, I finally completed a document about web blocking measures for law enforcement purposes.
I tried to put together suggestions and hints taken from this mailing list and from documents herein reported. If you believe it's appropriate, it could be reviewed and maybe used as a starting point to eventually produce a RIPE NCC guide, in order to support legislators and stakeholders decisions; otherwise, it will be just another document about the topic! :)
I share the document on Google Drive (replace FILE_ID with 0B2tYFe9mK9YfcGFUWkxEaldMdDg):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/FILE_ID/edit?usp=sharing
In case, just let me know how we can proceed with revisions.
This has taken some time, but I have now read the document. I like this. Patrik
participants (13)
-
Alain Van Gaever -
Carsten Schiefner -
Dmitry Burkov -
Gordon Lennox -
Jaap Akkerhuis -
Jim Reid -
Meredith Whittaker -
Niall O'Reilly -
Nick Hilliard -
Patrik Fältström -
Pier Carlo Chiodi -
Richard Barnes -
Roland Perry