Cooperation Working Group Thursday, 30 October 2008, Dubai A. Administrative Matters Patrik Fältström introduced himself as Chair for this meeting, as the two official Co-Chairs were unable to attend RIPE 57. He also noted some confusion about the name of the Jabber room. Two items were added to the agenda, under the A.O.B. item. These were presentations by Daniel Karrenberg and Jim Reid, and were added under A.O.B. as the Co-Chairs had already approved the existing agenda. Malcolm Hutty noted the closure of the Enhanced Cooperation Task Force, and its instruction for the Cooperation Working Group to maintain the document produced by the task force. Discussion of this matter was added as a third item under A.O.B. The participants in the room introduced themselves over the microphone. B. Open Comment/Review of Working Group Charter The Chair read out the charter in its current form. The participants endorsed the charter. C. Addressing the Rise of Criminal Service Providers - Paul Hoare, Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) The speaker discussed the issue of criminal activity by Internet Service Providers and how it might be policed. Jim Reid raise a question about whether criminal ISPs could have their RIPE NCC membership terminated as a form of sanction, and how effective this would be as a deterrence, given that the ISP would already have the IP resources. Paul agreed that there remain issues, but that the RIPE NCC could remove reverse DNS services, and the ranges could be handed to a group such as a white-hat organisation who could also announce the ranges, which would degrade the connectivity of the criminal ISP. Jim also noted that there the routing database and the deployment of routing security could be a two-way street, in that the original holder (the criminal ISP) might have a certificate associated with those resources, making it difficult to disrupt their connectivity. Paul agreed that there were many issues, and encouraged anyone with further suggestions to contact him, noting that the RIPE NCC could provide his contact details. He also noted that if the Internet community could regulate this area successfully, it might remove the need or temptation for government to step in and regulate. Daniel Karrenberg noted the term "crime caused by the Internet", and the danger of thinking that by fixing the Internet we can fix crime, whereas the Internet is simply a tool for certain crimes because it has enormous reach, it can rapidly disseminate material throughout the world and because it transcends jurisdictions. Technical solutions can only be a small part of a larger strategy in fighting crime. Paul agreed, noting that the Internet, like any technological development, presents new opportunities to criminals and we should try to restrict these opportunities. Daniel noted that the RIPE NCC's power is limited in terms of physically preventing criminal ISPs from using the Internet, but that this forum should be used to reach out to all ISPs, who collectively have the means to disable these rogue ISPs. He also noted that the RIPE NCC cannot be judge and executioner at the same time, but noted that SOCA is working with the Dutch law enforcement community in sorting this out. He emphasised that there should not be a focus on the RIPE NCC as the head of a hierarchical structure. Paul agreed and reiterated that he is primarily seeking suggestions and solutions. Jaap Akerhuis noted that in the domain name business there are also moves to have registries take down rogue sites, but that there is not a lot that can be done. Paul noted the large number of countries in the RIPE community and that gaining consensus from all these countries is difficult. There are issues of where free speech ends and crime begins. He reiterated the problems of cross-jurisdictional crime, though there are some crimes, such as pedophilia, that are widely accepted. He noted that there is no final solution to remove crime from the Internet, but that slowing them down is still an important goal. Malcolm Hutty noted that, supposing RIPE NCC could knock an ISP off the network, what kind of cooperation and approval would be necessary to obtain from national authorities in the relevant territory. He noted that several years ago UK CEOs were being arrested in the USA for gambling sites that were situated in the UK, and that there would be similar issues between countries within the RIPE region. Paul noted that in many cases SOCA would simply work with authorities in the relevant country, by approaching them and asking them to do something themselves. D. Update on RIPE NCC Outreach Activities RIPE NCC Government Roundtable Meeting, ICANN GAC and IGF 2008 preparations. There was no discussion. E. IPv6: What Should Governments Do? Patrik Fältström Patrik noted that the current deployment of IPv6 is not going well, what can be done about this and the role that government can play in that. There was no discussion. Z. A.O.B./Q&A Session Daniel Karrenberg – Presentation from the Address Policy Working Group on Address Depletion Scenarios Daniel pointed the WG to some work being done in the Address Policy WG on policies about the end of IPv4. He asked whether governments were concerned about the scenarios that were raised in his presentation. Jim Reid noted that in terms of "perceived unfairness", some governments in the region are actually saying that there is already unfairness in the distribution of IP addresses. Nurani Nimpuno noted that there are policy proposals in the works that address these issues in various ways, and that governments should be aware that this is not an issue that is being neglected. Daniel agreed that there are proposals that address part of this issue, but not all of it. Jim Reid - NTIA Open Consultation About Signing of the Root - Report on Work Being Done in the DNS Working Group Jim noted that the US Department of Commerce has asked for comments about signing the DNS root zone, and the DNS Working Group is preparing a statement, as they have in the past pushed for this. The WG has nearly completed this statement, and hopes to present it at the Closing Plenary, and that this can then be accepted as a RIPE community statement. It states basically that this is about the authenticity of the data in the DNS root, not about some overt form of control. There was no discussion. Enhanced Cooperation Task Force Document – What To Do? Malcolm noted that the document created by the Enhanced Cooperation Task Force (EC TF) consists of two parts, one recommending the establishment of this Working Group, the other explaining how the RIPE community works, what bottom-up governance is and why we have these processes in place. It is essentially a communications document. It was decided that a statement from the RIPE community to this effect would be useful to underpin the current system. It is now hoped that this document could go through the appropriate RIPE PDP steps to become a RIPE Document. Rob Bokzijl noted that there is no need for any further formalities as the document has gone through the appropriate RIPE Task Force steps. Paul Rendek noted that any revisions should be showcased in this Working Group. Action point: The RIPE NCC is directed to create a new RIPE Document and place it on the WG website. Malcolm is appointed as the contact for any final edits. Meeting closed. /Maria