Hi Randy On Fri, 9 Jun 2023 at 20:42, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
That would be fine if we had a very active and engaging community. Like we had 20 years ago. But the vast vast vast majority of this community is silent on almost all database matters. The vocal people are a handful of well known members of the community, whose views on many matters are also quite well known.
Sometimes someone raises a point and it gets little or no response. Like assigning an allocation. Often the chairs know from face to face discussions, people want this option. But there is no discussion. In situations like this I've found that a chair needs to drive the discussion. Even if that means making an outrageous suggestion that no one will agree to, but it generates a reaction. From the following discussion we can move forward.
Also sometimes a chair needs to throw ideas out into the community to move the service forwards. The chairs talk with the NCC engineers. We often discuss ideas that no one in the community is thinking about. If the chairs don't then raise it with the community the idea can never be considered.
So either the chairs or the NCC engineers need to be able to put ideas into the public domain, and sometimes drive the discussion to get it started, or technically and socially the database as a product and service just stagnates.
I often take on this role, as well as the devil's advocate to question what others say. I don't see it as pushing a personal agenda. I have no personal agenda. It doesn't matter to me personally if the database evolves or dies. It does matter to the industry and society. I have no employer or financial interest in how the database evolves. I can look at each issue and consider how it fits in with that old saying...for the good of the Internet.
This is one of the reasons why I've put myself forward again as a chair for another couple of years. I hope in that time David can spearhead a new generation of WG chairs. Then dinosaurs like myself (and others) can ascend into advisory positions instead of decision making roles.
Cheers Denis
QED
Your argument has not been demonstrated Randy. David has the right idea and I also like his goals. But it is not, as you stated, "simple" to achieve this. 'facilitate working group tasks' 'Promote active discussion' 'make the content easier to follow' How do you think this actually happens in practice Randy? What do the chairs do if there is no discussion? What if there is no content to summarise. Do we leave 'our agendas' at the door and 'simply' close all the NWIs because no one has commented in the first/last two months since the issue was raised? Life, society, this industry and yes, even the DB-WG, have all evolved over the last 20 years. We have archives of the mailing lists. Look back at all the NWIs since NWI-1. How many of them never got off the ground, or were dying inconclusively, until the chairs breathed some life back into the discussion or started it? This is the reality of the 2020s. Most people read but don't comment. To generate comments to get a range of opinions from different people (more than cryptic one liners) often needs someone to trigger a reaction from them. A chair needs to say something, push an opinion or drive the discussion in some way in order to get these other views and opinions so we can have a consensus. Maybe some other WGs have more active discussions naturally. That doesn't happen very often with the DB-WG. Maybe we can adopt this idea of yours Randy, where all the chairs say nothing, don't comment, don't intervene, don't offer any advice based on knowledge and experience. Just sit back and moderate 'the discussion', if there is any. This also means not going out into the community or on the mailing list and trying to get people involved in the DB-WG. That is driving an agenda that you say we should leave at the door. It would be an easy life for the chairs. There would be very few new NWIs and little discussion on those we do have. It may even make my presentation at RIPE 86 on Managing the RIPE Database even more significant as a way forward. cheers denis
randy