Colleagues There is a reason why this took 11+ years. A lot of the work needed for the technical change was considered and in some areas applied to the database years ago. That is why we don't have an NWI on UTF8. What we could not agree on was the policy aspect. Which attributes to allow UTF8 to be used with. Whether we should just allow UTF8 or keep the attribute as Latin1/ASCII and add an optional duplicate attribute in UTF8. This was brought up many times and no one would commit to anything. Now we have an agreement on how to move this forward. But now we don't agree that it should be a policy. In general where we apply rules or affect behaviour or mindset, we have done it with a policy. If it is a straightforward technical tweak, we can do it with an NWI. I hear what Angela says. These issues with UTF8 and contact methods do not impact on, or require any changes to, existing policies. But that statement does not rule out creating a new RIPE Database Policy to define these rules and behaviours. We seem to be in a position now where any change to the RIPE Database is considered to be a technical tweak in complete isolation of anything else. So everything is an NWI. If that was true, why are the "status:" attribute values defined in the Address Policy? Status is a database thing. If you want to change it then it is just a technical tweak. When we recently added 'ALLOCATED-ASSIGNED' why did we have to change policy? It is just database semantics. Why do we have an Abuse-c Policy? Like "status:", "abuse-c:" is just a database attribute. Either these are all policy issues, or none of them are. Let's not pick and choose so you can rush something through quickly. Similarly, if we are going to allow users to define their preferred method of being contacted and maybe have a mandatory method like email, or suggest that email is always offered, then this should also be defined in a RIPE Database Policy. Again this is not a technical tweak. It is about rules and behaviour. All of these issues define how elements of the registry are managed and used. Even if they require some technical tweak in order to implement the rules or enforce some behaviour. Now let's look in a little more detail about what we are agreeing with UTF8. As with all aspects of life in the 2020s, everyone is in a hurry to just 'get things done'. Headlines and sound bites are what most people make decisions on. Very few people have time for detail. That is always something for other people to look at. But if you like the headlines and your heads start to nod, decisions are made. Then detail becomes irrelevant...to you. We are making a habit these days of looking at issues within small bubbles, in complete isolation of the bigger picture. The consequences of your change can reach far beyond your little bubble. With regard to "remarks:", this is, and always has been, defined as free text. Absolutely anything can be included here. It has been an attribute in the database since the beginning, about 36 years ago. For most of that time it was never said this should not include any personal data. Some of these may contain personal data in "remarks:" attributes. But data can be written in UTF8 regardless of the data content. So I see no problem allowing UTF8 in "remarks:". The "descr:" attribute is very different to "remarks:". In the Impact Analysis it was said: Personal Data Users must not add personal data in “remarks:” or “descr:” attributes, as these attributes are not included in the daily limit accounting, are not validated as they contain free text, and are not filtered by default. This is already the case in the RIPE database and the introduction of UTF-8 encoding does not change this. Personal data with UTF-8 encoding is out of scope. In the Operational update at RIPE-90 it was said: Allow UTF-8 in “descr:” and “remarks:” Attributes -Names and addresses NOT affected It is not correct to say it is already the case that the "descr:" attribute must not include personal data. This is exactly what the "descr:" attribute is. Again this attribute has existed since the beginning of the database. One of the early definitions of it can be found in RIPE-050 RIPE Database Template For Networks from 01 Apr 1992: inetnum: descr: Description of the network. Give organisation and place. Postal address is not needed, this can be found via the contacts. You can't send postal mail to a bunch of routers and transceivers, can you? The country is given in country:. Format: free text, one line per entry, multiple lines in sequence Example: descr: Network Bugs Feeding Facility descr: Terabit Labs Inc. descr: Northtown Mandatory For the last 36 years, operators have been adding the End User's name and location details into the "descr:" attributes. If you check the database for INETNUM and INET6NUM objects created during October 2025, you will see that most still include the name and location in these attributes. Every object type except PERSON, ROLE, KEY-CERT and IRT includes the "descr:" attribute. Across the database, in the applicable objects, there are in total: objects: 6637650 descr: 7884770 So we have almost 8m "descr:" attributes largely containing name and location details of, mostly, End Users operating public networks. Now the problem I have with this discussion and the conclusions being drawn is the mixing of UTF8 issues with those of personal data and privacy concerns. If we are talking about allowing UTF8 then let's stick to that topic. Do not mix it with privacy concerns. They are completely separate issues. You can apply UTF8 to "descr:" regardless of the data content. The current definition of "descr:" in the database documentation simply says "A short description related to the object.". But for many years it was more like RIPE-050 above. So resource holders were required to include the name and location details of a network user. They are still doing that today. Some of that is personal information. Probably no one has any idea how much of the "descr:" data is personal information. If we start pushing new rules about not including personal information in these attributes, resource holders may stop putting this information in these attributes. That could be quite damaging for some of the stakeholders of the RIPE Database. Now some may say we should not include personal data in these attributes. But we do not have a Business Requirements Document defining the business case for operating a public registry in the 2020s. So it is impossible to say if any of the exceptions in GDPR allow the registry to process this personal information. So can I suggest that as this conversation continues, and in any conclusions that are drawn, we focus on UTF8 and leave privacy for another thread. So in conclusion, I agree with allowing UTF8 in "remarks:" and "descr:" attributes, regardless of the data content of those attributes, but I think it should be defined in a RIPE Database Policy. cheers denis On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 at 10:19, Peter Hessler <phessler@theapt.org> wrote:
Hi Working Group,
Based on the existing comments, the Chairs have decided to put a 2 week deadline for additional comments. Please send your spooky replies by EOD October 31, and we can judge consensus then.
Peter Hessler, On Behalf of the Database WG Chairs.
On 2025 Oct 22 (Wed) at 08:59:41 +0300 (+0300), Edward Shryane wrote: :Dear colleagues, : :As I presented at RIPE 89 and RIPE 90, I'd like to propose to allow UTF-8 encoded characters in "descr:" and "remarks:" attributes. : :Is there support for adding UTF-8 in the RIPE database? Please let me know your feedback. : :Regards :Ed Shryane :RIPE NCC : : :Problem Definition :------------------ : :It is currently only possible to store Latin-1 encoded data in the RIPE database. This is an issue for the majority of the RIPE region whose native language is not supported by Latin-1. We should allow regional operators to add notices to their RIPE database objects in their native language, using UTF-8 encoded data, so long as this does not affect interoperability. : :Solution Definition :------------------- : :In order to allow operators across the RIPE region to add notices in their own local language, we will allow UTF-8 characters in the “descr:” and “remarks:” attributes only. This change reduces the risk of impact to operators, users and the RIPE NCC, and does not affect existing RIPE policy. : :We can extend support for UTF-8 in additional existing or new attributes in the future, once we have more operational experience with it, but for now, only “descr:” and “remarks:” will be supported. : :Background :---------- : :Some work has already been done towards internationalization of the RIPE database. For example, in April 2015, Piotr Strzyzewski suggested to the DB-WG to support UTF-8 in free-text attributes. : :"Proposal to allow UTF8 (April 2015)" : https://mailman.ripe.net/archives/list/db-wg@ripe.net/thread/QEYKOWZBCVA6HNH... : :In May 2022, I published a RIPE Labs article on the impact analysis of supporting UTF-8 in the RIPE database. : https://labs.ripe.net/author/ed_shryane/impact-analysis-for-utf-8-in-the-rip... : :At RIPE 89 and RIPE 90 I proposed to support UTF-8 in the RIPE database and asked for feedback. : https://ripe89.ripe.net/wp-content/uploads/presentations/105-RIPE89-DB-WG-UT... : https://ripe90.ripe.net/wp-content/uploads/presentations/120-RIPE90-DB-WG-Op... : :Impact Analysis :--------------- : :Backwards Compatibility :UTF-8 is backwards compatible with ASCII, in the same way as Latin-1. Any RPSL objects solely using ASCII will be compatible with UTF-8 encoding. Approximately 99% of all objects in the RIPE database only contain ASCII characters. : :Personal Data :Users must not add personal data in “remarks:” or “descr:” attributes, as these attributes are not included in the daily limit accounting, are not validated as they contain free text, and are not filtered by default. This is already the case in the RIPE database and the introduction of UTF-8 encoding does not change this. Personal data with UTF-8 encoding is out of scope. : :Interoperability :If interoperability is a concern (i.e. a notice must be readable by a wider community) then it is recommended that only ASCII values are used. : :Valid Codepoints :Validate UTF-8 input with the IDNA 2008 standard to decide whether a Unicode codepoint is allowed (i.e. only allow protocol valid code points). This standard is used in the implementation of Internationalised Domain Names (IDNs). This allows for consistency (code points will be mapped to a specific set of characters) and improved security (using an inclusion model to only allow certain characters). : :Guidelines for the Implementation of Internationalized Domain Names :https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/idn-guidelines-2011-09-02-en : :Transliteration :Transliteration to Latin-1 is only done when necessary to match the default response encoding. Otherwise transliteration is not done (i.e. UTF-8 characters will be returned as-is). : :Impact on RIPE Database Services :-------------------------------- : :Whois (Port 43) Query :* The “descr:” and “remarks:” attributes are returned by default on port 43 query responses. :* Port 43 will continue to use Latin-1 by default. If so, any UTF-8 characters outside the ASCII character set will be transliterated to Latin-1 or will be substituted with a “?” character. :* The client can specify the “-Z utf-8” flag to change the response encoding to UTF-8, then no transliteration will be done. : :NRTMv3 (Port 4444) :* The encoding used by NRTMv3 will continue to be Latin-1. As for port 43, any non Latin-1 characters will be substituted with a “?” character. : :NRTMv4 :* No impact. RPSL objects will continue to be returned in UTF-8 encoding in snapshot and delta files. : :Whois REST API :* No impact. The Whois REST API already supports UTF-8. : :RDAP :* No impact. The RDAP protocol already supports UTF-8. : :Web Application :* UTF-8 encoding is already supported on the query page. :* The create and update page validation will be changed to allow UTF-8 characters in “descr:” and “remarks:” attributes. : :Mailupdates :* No impact. UTF-8 encoding is supported. : :Syncupdates :* No impact. UTF-8 encoding is supported. : :Daily Database Dump and Split Files :* The encoding of the database dump and split files remains Latin-1. The “descr:” and “remarks:” attributes are included unfiltered. Any non-Latin-1 UTF-8 characters will be substituted with a “?” character. :* We will provide a separate UTF-8 encoded database dump and split files, which will include “descr:” and “remarks:” attributes without substitutions. : :New LIR Application :* No impact. : :Registry Team :* No comments or conerns as changes are limited to descr and remarks attributes. ----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/db-wg.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/