Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: AW: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects

30 Jun 2000

      Hello,

On 30.06.00 11:07 henning.brauer@bsmail.de wrote:
...
Hi,
thats not really the point of our critics.
a) changes only be made by members????
as every DE-domainowner is our customer and we are responisble to him 
about the security of his domainname we must assure that changes are made 
in a verifyable and accountable way. It is important that there is a 
documented responsibility.
...
b) technical solution - RIPE's solutions are working really good, 
DENIC's
past solutions are poor
no comment.
...
c) change in interfaces not acceptable
...
d) contact info's, especially phone and fax, are REALLY important for
changes in interfaces are sometimes necessary. But I am with you that this 
should happen very rarely and should be prepared very well and people 
should be informed very soon -- but we tried to make all this.

the
...
hostmasters to inform each other about technical probs. If this could be
against German's laws, just make these fields optional.
we are only allowed to publish these things if the custoumer have signed 
that he allows the publishing. Currently we think that from nearly none of 
the persons in the RIPE-DB this allowence is there. For the future we plan 
to let the people the choice to publish these data.
...
e) putting so named "non-operational data" or "test data" which is
incomplete and partly incorrect in production systems (it IS in
productionis - just do an whoi-query...) is not acceptable
sorry I don't understand these point. Maybe you can show me an example of 
these "test data".
...
f) plans making life for non-members harder -> DENIC tries to get more
payin' members????
As we are working on a costrecovery base (non-profit) more members don't 
means automatically more income. But surely are we are interested in 
organisations taking the responsibitlity and sharing the risk to run the 
German Registry as a self regulating body for the benefits of the German 
Internet Community.
...
g) plans to charge for person: and role: records?
h) to be continued...
Regards Sabine
...
pls see http://denicpetition.bsws.de
Greetings from Germany
Henning Brauer
Hostmaster BSWS
------------------------------------------------
BS Web Services
Roedingsmarkt 14
20459 Hamburg
Germany
info@bsmail.de
www.bsws.de
fon: +49 40 3750357-0
fax: +49 40 3750357-5
PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE
"Sabine
                    Dolderer/Deni        To: henning.brauer@bsmail.de
                    c"                   cc:     db-wg@ripe.net,
...
lir-wg@ripe.net, robert@martin-legene.dk
                    <dolderer@den        Subject:     Antwort: Re: AW: 
AW: 
Deletion of .de domain objects
                    ic.de>
30.06.00
                    10:39
Hello,
speaking for DENIC ;-). I will try to comment about the reasons why we
have (or even must) done the migration.
First of all I want to try to summarize the problems we are faced in the
past and then I will come to an explanation of the solution we choose.
Problems:
There were a lot of discussions in the past about domain-objects in the
RIPE-database and that they cause too much capacity for RIPE to maintain
their database for this amount of objects.
There was a common understanding that RIPE is not a service provider for
domainregistries like ccTLDs but there were indeed suggestions to offer 
or
assist us in this kind of service.
There were a lot of pressure from our dataprotection office that due to
our business we pubish data (or we urge provider to puplish data of
...
customers) which is not allowed to publish under German data protection
laws. Mainly the existence of the inverse query feature and the
...
of data like phone-, faxnumbers and email addresses was critisized.
We have had also a lot of discussions about the issue with other ccTLDs
and with people from the EU commission. The fundamental outcome of these
discussion was that there is no real issue to export personal data from
the coutries to acentral database and that this should therefore stopped
very soon. If the data is stored locally everybody can impose 
individually
there dataprotection laws. Nevertheless there should be a central
entrypoint to look for domain-data and therefore we support the RIPE
referal mechanism and are looking together with other ccTLDs and the 
db-wg
from RIPE at solutions like using the SRV-RR for whois-queries (see
rfc2782 for a documentation)
Solution
So as I pointed out above there was no other solution than to migrate
...
domainobjects to a DENIC based domainquery mechanism. People who 
followed
the discussion know that DENIC is on there way out of RIPE. Actually it
was a dicission made by the RIPE db-wg in Amsterdam (February?) that
...
should be no domainobject in the database after June 30th.
Why do we publish less data than RIPE does?
I have tried to explain it also above due to German dataprotection laws 
we
are allowed to publish only "necessary data" without formal agreement 
with
the applicant.
Whats necessary concerning a domainname?
We agreed with the people from the dataprotection office that there is 
no
necessity to no more about a admin-c of the domain than his address
because if you need for legal issues to come in contact with him thats
...
only thing you need.
Concerning the tech-c and the zone-c  he finally agreed that there is a
necessity due to technical urgencies to publish phone and 
email-addresses
and so we will implement this very soon.
I hope I have help you a little bit in understanding our position. I am
really sorry that due to this discussion I get the feeling that people
felt we are doing things without thinking or good reasons or just to 
make
them angry. I hope you see there are - as usual - two sides of a medal 
and
you see know the other side a little bit better,
Regards Sabine
On 30.06.00 09:39 henning.brauer@bsmail.de wrote:
...
Hi,
I'm sorry for that, received a mail in german and replied....
once again in english:
I'd like to see a common procedure against the behaviour od DENIC.
There are lot's of problems with the DENIC's solution, and if you
...
on
...
the past working of DENIC, you would really wish that there are no
domain
or person or role-objects in a database controlled by them....
The current solution by RIPE (for the Handles) works great. Most of us
developed tools, webinterfaces, mailrobos and so on to deal with the
procedure of creating, updating and deleting RIPE-Handles. All of us
could
live with a change of the email-adress to send the requests to, but 
not
with totally new formats and and totally different concepts. It would 
be
a
good idea for DENIC to take the (really great working) RIPE-solution.
The manner aof DENICs working now is inacceptable. Anybody making
whois-querys with one of the uncountable webinterfaces gets the 
cripled
contact data displayed. How the not with blindness strucked of us have
seen, there is lots of data missing in the persons:s and role:s-data:
remarks, mnt-by, phone, fax, trouble, notify, changed and (for the
role:s)
admin-c and tech-c. On Example: in our role-handle (compare whois -h
whois.denic.de NOC54-RIPE  against whois -h whois.ripe.net NOC54-RIPE)
is
described how to make updates and who to cantact for whatever. This 
info
is
now missing. Remember: this (in DENICs words "non-operational data" or
"just a test") criple data is displayed whenever you query a german
domain!
The most people won't hav the idea to query whois.denic.de for the
domain
and then whois.ripe.net for the person:s and role:s, and I'm sure that
even
no webinterface to whois does so. This means tons of senseless work 
for
us!
It is really inacceptable insolence by DENIC to take data out of the
RIPE-Database, changing it and then publishing it! With RIPE this is
inconceivablily, have a look at their policy. I'm not sure if this is
not
against german or europeen laws, but I'm not a lawyer. If I think of
...
...
future, all domain:s, person:s and role:s at DENICs database... beam 
me
back a few years, please.
Putting the domain:s in DENICs own database is acceptable. There is no
really change for us (ok, I had to add two exra lines to our
whois-webinterface's code...), because we register Domains through 
DENIC
or
resellers (most of us are not members of DENIC because this is really
expensive, so we are depend on  resellers). With person:s and
role:s-objects, surely all of us are working directly with the
RIPE-Database. It is inacccetable if changes will only be possible by
DENIC's members. This means weeks or eve months of handwork for us. 
Then
the resellers will complete their (mail-)interfaces for changing , and
parallel tio doing lots of work by hand we have to completely 
redevelop
our
tools, webinterfaces, mailrobos and so on!!!
This can not be the way to our future.
Let's join to make DENIC know that this is inacceptable. Contact your
DENIC
reseller and tell them what you think about this. They control DENICs
board...
Greetings from Germany
Henning Brauer
Hostmaster BSWS
------------------------------------------------
BS Web Services
Roedingsmarkt 14
20459 Hamburg
Germany
info@bsmail.de
www.bsws.de
fon: +49 40 3750357-0
fax: +49 40 3750357-5
PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE
Robert
                    Martin-Legène          To: 
henning.brauer@bsmail.de
                    <robert@martin-        cc:
                    legene.dk>             Subject:     Re: AW: AW:
Deletion
of
.de domain objects
                    Sent by:
                    r@jenslyn.nisse
                    .dk
30.06.00 05:49
Hallo.
This is a list in English.
What did you write?
On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 henning.brauer@bsmail.de wrote:
...
Ein gemeinsames Vorgehen gegen dieses Vorgehen des DENIC sähe ich
...
gerne.
Es ergeben sich zig Probleme aus der DENIC-Lösung, und wenn ich so 
an
die
Bearbeitungszeiten denke...
Die Lösung mit den RIPE-Handles funktioniert wunderbar. Die meisten
von
uns
haben Werkzeuge/Webinterfaces/Mailrobos/.... entwickelt, um damit zu
Arbeiten. Mit einer Änderung der eMail-Adresse und einer Abfrage
DENIC-oder-nicht können wir wohl alle leben, mit völlig neuen 
Formaten
und
Vorgehensweise zum Updaten/Anlegen von RIPE (oder dann 
DENIC)-Handles
nicht. Das DENIC wäre gut beraten, die RIPE-Lösung zu übernehmen.
Die Art und Weise, mit der DENIC hier vorgeht, finde ich
unverantwortlich.
Jeder, der jetzt Abfragen über eins der zahllosen Webinterfaces für
whois
macht (oder gar selbst whois kennt ;-)) kriegt jetzt die 
DENIC-(test?
-)Handles angezeigt. In unserem Rollenhandle ist unter anderem klar
beschrieben, was für Updates etc. zu tun ist und wer für was zu
kontaktieren ist. Kommen diese Infos jetzt nicht mehr, laufen wieder
alle,
zum Teil unnützen, Anfragen irgendwo zentral auf und verursachen
unnötigerweise zusätzliche Arbeit. Und das das DENIC ohne Zustimmung
der
Betroffenen Daten derselben ändert und Infos rausfallen lässt, ist
eine
bodenlose Frechheit. Beim RIPE ist das durch deren Policy ganz klar
ausgeschlossen. Wenn ich die vergangene und vor allem jetztige
Arbeitsweise
des DENIC sehe, wird mir ganz anders bei dem Gedanken daran, das 
alle
Domain und vor allem Personenrecords bei denen in der Datenbank
...
den Domainrecords ist das aktzeptabel, da sich an der Arbeitsweise 
für
uns
nichts ändert - registrieren, update usw tun wir eh übers DENIC oder
deren
Reseller. Bei den Person- und Role-Records arbeiten wir wohl alle
sehr
sehr
liegen.
Bei
direct
...
auf die RIPE-Datenbank, und da ist es nicht akzeptabel wenn
info@denic.de, 
their
publishing
the
there
the
think
the
plötzlich
...
...
alle
...
Änderungen nur noch über DENIC-Mitglieder möglich sind - für uns als
nicht-Mitglied also nur über nen Reseller. Bis die dann soweit sind
und
eine automatisierbare Möglichkeit zum Anlegen/Updaten usw. von
Persons/Roles geschaffen haben, geht sicherlich noch einige Zeit ins
Land,
und dann wird es da wohl auch auf ein völlig neues Format 
rauslaufen.
Folge
also? Wir müssen erstmal Wochen- oder gar Monatelang Handles per 
Hand
bearbeiten und dann auch noch parallel (wenn die Reseller soweit 
sind)
unsere Robos umbauen... nein danke.
Gruss
Henning Brauer
Hostmaster BSWS
------------------------------------------------
BS Web Services
Roedingsmarkt 14
20459 Hamburg
Germany
info@bsmail.de
www.bsws.de
fon: +49 40 3750357-0
fax: +49 40 3750357-5
PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE
"NCC Network
                    Coordination         To:
<henning.brauer@bsmail.de>
                    Center"              cc: 
<owner-loca-ir@ripe.net>
                    <ncc@mediasca        Subject:     AW: AW: 
Deletion
of
.de domain objects
                    pe.de>
29.06.00
                    18:04
Wie wärs mit einem gemeinschaftlichen Complaint ans DENIC?
Einige an der Diskussion beteiligte Leute bemerkerten ja auch schon,
das es weder statthaft noch logisch sei, seitens der DENIC
Maintainerlose
Objekte mit einem DENIC-P Maintainer zu versehen.
Die nun bei einer Abrage des denics4 gezeigten Objekte enthalten ja,
wie
unten schon bemerkt, gar keinen Maintainer.
Wenn dieser Datenbestand nun doch Tatsache ist oder wird, dann... au
weia.
In der Diskussion wurde ja auch schon darüber gemutmasst, dass
wahrscheinlich auch wieder nur DENIC Mitglieder überhaupt Änderungen
vornehmen können und das ist dann wahrhaftig grauselig.
MfG
Martin Ahrens
Mediascape Hostmasters
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: henning.brauer@bsmail.de [mailto:henning.brauer@bsmail.de]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Juni 2000 17:40
An: NCC Network Coordination Center
Betreff: Re: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects
Kann ich nur hoffen.
Wie andere in der Liste (mit weniger Tomaten auf den Augen) schon
bemerkt
haben, fehlen auch die mnt-by's, notifys, phone, und diverser 
anderer
Kram.
Gruss
Henning Brauer
Hostmaster BSWS
------------------------------------------------
BS Web Services
Roedingsmarkt 14
20459 Hamburg
Germany
info@bsmail.de
www.bsws.de
fon: +49 40 3750357-0
fax: +49 40 3750357-5
PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE
"NCC Network
                    Coordination         To:
<henning.brauer@bsmail.de>
                    Center"              cc:
                    <ncc@mediasca        Subject:     AW: Deletion 
of
.de
domain objects
                    pe.de>
29.06.00
                    16:00
Hallo,
was Sie (w.u.) bemerkten, ist mir auch schon aufgefallen. DENIC hat
Daten
aus Person und Role Objekten des Ripe NCC offenbar in gekürzter Form
übernommen. Allerdings sind alle Objekte mit
changed:    test@nowhere.denic.de 2000MMDD
versehen. Handelt es sich hier ggf. noch um eine Testvariante der
Übernahme?
MfG
Martin Ahrens
Mediascape Hostmasters
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-local-ir@ripe.net [mailto:owner-local-ir@ripe.net]Im
Auftrag
von henning.brauer@bsmail.de
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Juni 2000 13:23
An: lir-wg@ripe.net; db-wg@ripe.net; local-ir@ripe.net
Betreff: Re: Deletion of .de domain objects
Hi,
I just queryed our own main domain and have seen that the person and
roles
had also "DENIC" as source.
But really more interesting: WHERE ARE THE REMARK:s????
try whois -h whois.ripe.net NOC54-RIPE and whois -h whois.denic.de
NOC54-RIPE.
Greetings from Germany
Henning Brauer
Hostmaster BSWS
------------------------------------------------
BS Web Services
Roedingsmarkt 14
20459 Hamburg
Germany
info@bsmail.de
www.bsws.de
fon: +49 40 3750357-0
fax: +49 40 3750357-5
PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE
RIPE Database
                    Administratio        To:     lir-wg@ripe.net,
db-wg@ripe.net, local-ir@ripe.net
                    n                    cc:
                    <ripe-dbm@rip        Subject:     Deletion of 
.de
domain
objects
                    e.net>
                    Sent by:
                    owner-lir-wg@
                    ripe.net
29.06.00
                    12:45
--------
Dear Colleauges,
We are happy to announce that we have successfully completed
the first phase of migrating .de domain objects and related objects
to DENIC's own whois database. Now there are no .de domain objects
in RIPE whois database except for the top level one.
Normal operation of our database has been resumed at 9:30am, 
Central
European Summer Time.
If you have any question, please reply to ripe-dbm@ripe.net.
--
Filippo Portera
--
Robert Martin-Legene
Sabine  Dolderer
DENIC eG
Wiesenhüttenplatz 26
D-60329 Frankfurt
eMail: Sabine.Dolderer@denic.de
Fon: +49 69 27235 0
Fax: +49 69 27235 235
Sabine  Dolderer 
DENIC eG
Wiesenhüttenplatz 26
D-60329 Frankfurt

eMail: Sabine.Dolderer@denic.de
Fon: +49 69 27235 0
Fax: +49 69 27235 235

Sabine Dolderer/Denic

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