Denis, On 03/06/2017 11:48, denis walker wrote:
HI Brian
There are a number of points here that I must take issue with.
"I've no doubt we're going to get some things wrong" You cannot afford to get things wrong with this. In Chechnya gay and transgendered people are being murdered. In Russia and most of the middle east (where the next RIPE Meeting is to be held), to be identified as gay or transgendered also puts your safety at risk. What is 'important' is that you don't put anyone's safety at risk.
Yes, I'm very aware of what is happening across the world and where the next RIPE meeting will be. We will get things wrong. The protection of data was not what I was referring to. More that we need forward momentum on this and that in general, rather than in the specific, perfect is the enemy of good/done. I would imagine that a number of people, when faced with such a question and the assurances from the NCC that the data will not be connected to them in any way, will still opt-out. That is their choice.
I am surprised you think the topic of how this data is collected anonymously is just a detail to be passed onto someone else and to think about it is considered micro management. This is a core issue. What questions you ask are details. This data MUST be collected by a third party organisation and never in any way associated with identifiable registration data.
I didn't say the topic, I said the details. And the questions asked will be decided by this group. The mechanisms of the registration system are up to the NCC, with guidance from the community. We need to be happy with the robustness of that protection, not design it for them.
If you don't do it this way the data you collect is meaningless anyway. Making it 'opt-in' does not help. Anyone from parts of the region where it is dangerous to be identified in this way will not simply 'opt-out'. That in itself is a statement. They will opt-in and lie. That is what I would do.
RIPE75 will be a single data point and there are all sorts of issues with what we can take from that, even if we got perfect information from all attendees. While it would be awful if our transgender community members from those parts of the region felt they had to choose one of the binary options I do not believe it will skew the data that much. This sounds like I'm minimising things, which I am not. I'm trying to propose a way to start collecting (anonymised) data as one initiative and I am concerned that if we decided that perfection of completed data is a necessary first step at whichever meeting we start at, then we will never start. Sadly the evil people that would harm someone for being "different" to their norm aren't going to go away any time soon. And I recognise the privilege I have that this isn't an immediate danger for me.
I would like some comment from the RIPE NCC on how they propose to collect this sensitive information. And yes I do want technical details, not just some vague comment and assurance. I will scrutinize the way this is to be done and if I don't consider it safe I will continue to object.
Yes, we don't expect to go forward without that. That will be happening next week and it's possible the NCC will still say they're not happy it can be done. I don't, as I said, see this group as being responsible for managing the technical details of this, but then again, I'm not in charge of this group, so it is not solely my decision.
I object to this being done in a rushed (iterative) way for RIPE 75.
And you are taking the wrong meaning from my use of the word iterative. I mean the ongoing process of increasing diversity in the community must be iterative. If the NCC are not happy they can anonymise the data or if the community here aren't happy with the plan, then yes, we must pause and go back to our original plan of first collecting the data at RIPE76. I do worry what objections will be raised then and whether we will strive for perfection and achieve nothing over a long period of time? Brian
------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> *To:* diversity@ripe.net *Sent:* Saturday, 3 June 2017, 10:59 *Subject:* Re: [diversity] Options for gender on meeting registration
Morning,
Denis, as you say, it's been a while. In most cases these days in the UK and Ireland the preferred umbrella term is transgender. Of course different people use different terms, but a number of the terms you've used below would be considered offensive or, at best, a bit gauche.
All of that said, we should be focusing on what we can do around initial, opt-in, anonymised data collection.
There is no question that any such information must be separated out and proper data protection systems must be in place. The details of these systems are not really for discussion here, that's for the NCC teams to implement. They are the experts and we should trust them. We cannot, as a group, micromanage every aspect of this.
This is going to be an iterative process and I've no doubt we're going to get some things wrong as we work to help the continual improvement of the RIPE community. However it is important that we do act, in a strategic fashion, and not go around and around in some attempt to reach perfection.
Thanks,
Brian
Brian Nisbet Network Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie <mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270
denis walker wrote on 02/06/2017 20:17:
Hi Leslie
"RIPE is an international community, and I know that common english terms can vary widely between different areas. In the US, the term 'transvestite' is often used as a slur. Transgendered is the widely accepted nomenclature. I find http://www.transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-terminology to be a good guide for definitions of trans terminology."
You are right, it is not easy to get terminology right across borders. But this list is USA biased and that is not the same as in the UK for example. But in either case 'transvestite' is not the same as 'transgendered'. From this list 'transvestite' is synonymous with 'cross-dresser'.
It says, in the explanation for cross-dresser, "The older term "transvestite" is considered derogatory by many in the United States.". That is not the case in the UK. Whilst transvestite (trannie or tranny) and cross-dresser (CD) are to some extent interchangeable, they are often used in different contexts. In a profile on a personals web site you may say "Looking for a CD". But if you went to the gay village in Manchester and wanted to find one of the bars where many transvestites meet you would ask someone "where is the trannie bar?".
But of course these terms constantly evolve and it is a while since I was a regular in Manchester....so it may be all different now :)
cheers denis
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