- ipv6-wg - mailman.ripe.net

On deploying IPv6 for consumers..
by Geert Jan de Groot 07 Oct '09

07 Oct '09

Hi, By monitoring the stream from Lisbon, I can tell the RIPE meeting is going well and lots of resolution is made towards deployment of technologies like IPv6, DNSSEC and others. It's good to see many faces, even though it's been a few years since I attended a meeting myself. I hope people are enjoying the meeting. On the topic of IPv6 deployment, I'd like to ask the WG on the following issue: Turns out that, when browsing from www.ripe.net to find the URLs of the Lisbon streams, I seem to run into a PMTU blackhole issue, and, IPv6 doesn't deal with these too well. The only way around it, for me, was to switch IPv6 *OFF*. (for those curious, it looks like a PMTU blackhole to rosie.ripe.net, but I don't want to badmouth the RIPE NCC or the meeting crew - read on!) Before you think this is another consumer-enduser, I'd like to consider that a few weeks ago, a few volunteers diagnosed a similar problem with a large public FTP server in the Netherlands. I have tcpdump logs of the PMTU packets entering the FTP server box itself, and the TCP stack not noticing. Since it's not my box, there is still work-in-progress to fix this, but it definitely is not a local problem - the PMTU packets come from the XS4all IPv6 tunnel broker box! My question, to the WG-at-large, is this: I'm just using a consumer-grade ADSL connection, with consumer-grade helpdesk access, who is unable to deal with these issues. When IPv6 is deployed on a larger scale, problems like these are bound to happen, and, I fear, these problems happen with Joe Common who cannot diagnose these problems. My only recourse, and certainly Joe Common's only recourse, is to switch IPv6 *OFF*. That is, umm, incompatible with the IPv6 outreach the RIPE community is currently doing. My questions therefore: - Should these problems be discovered before large-scale deployment? - Would it be a good idea to do efforts to pro-actively detect (and correct) these problems on the infrastructure we have now, and the infrastructure we're soon deploying? - What mechanisms do we need to report these issues, so they can be addressed by people who have both clue and enable/root access to fix them? (taking into account the very nasty scaling properties of "consumer-grade helpdesk support lines" and the quality of the reports one gets from Joe Common-style users) Again, this message is not to badmouth RIPE NCC, the Lisbon LOC, XS4all, or anybody else, but just a question on how to deal with these issues, as the current mechanisms ("consumer helpdesk") can't cope, and the recourse ("switch IPv6 off") is probably not what we want. Comments? Geert Jan

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A suggestion about IPv6 Training
by Gabriella Paolini 07 Oct '09

07 Oct '09

Just a suggestion about IPv6 training and what we can do for IPv6. Under EU project Euchinagrid we (GARR) organized some tutorial to move grid programmers to a transparent network approach in their codes. http://www.euchinagrid.org/IPv6/IPv6_presentation/Introduction_to_IPv6_prog… This item could seem to be marginal to the network "affairs", but network programming is a fundamental point of contact between network and applications. Now network programming is dramatically IPv4 oriented... we support an evolution to a "protocol free" programming that demands all is possible to stack. Another point that we are trying to support is to change the point of view about the IPv6 introduction in a user network. Usually the focus is on moving the users/customers/clients to access to IPv6 resources . In our last workshop, we said to our users: first point: move all the services to IPv6 (web, mail, and all the other that you have) and after plan the clients connection. The message is: when a large number of IPv6 only users will arrive (and it will happen), they will be able to see your contents. Gabriella -- Gabriella Paolini _________________ GARR Italian National Research and Education Network Via dei Tizii, 6 - 00185 Rome direct: +39 06 4962 2507 mobile: +39 334 6533 252 gabriella.paolini(a)garr.it - http://www.garr.it/

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Agenda for IPv6 wg RIPE (v1)
by David Kessens 29 Sep '09

29 Sep '09

Hi, Please see below for the first version of our working group agenda for RIPE 59. The agenda looks a bit different from usual: as you know, Maarten Botterman did a survey regarding IPv6 deployment and offered to organize a followup panel discussion with realtime input from the public using an online tool. Please contact Maarten Botterman <maarten(a)gnksconsult.com> directly if there are particular followup topics that you believe are useful for the discussion. We are scheduled to meet: Tue Oct 6, 16.00-18.00, Corinthia Hotel, Lisbon, Portugal We very often get a few last minute agenda items that are interesting enough to make it worthwhile to revise our agenda and we still have a little bit of flexibility with our timing so I fully expect that the agenda might still change a little bit. See you all in Lisbon, David Kessens --- Agenda (v1) for IPv6 wg RIPE59 When: Tue Oct 6, 16.00-18.00 Where: Corinthia Hotel, Lisbon, Portugal A. Administrative stuff - appointment of scribe - agenda bashing (David Kessens) B. RIPE NCC IPv6 update (James Aldridge) C. Future of the working group - charter discussion (Shane Kerr, David Kessens, input from the audience) D. Future RIPE network experiments (David Kessens, input from the audience) E. IPv6 Deployment: what are the remaining issues and bottlenecks? (panel discussion with interactive input from the audience, moderator: Maarten Botterman, GNKS Consult) F. Developments/initiatives regarding IPv6 in the RIPE region and beyond (input from the audience) ... Y. Input for the RIPE NCC Activity Plan (input from the audience) Z. AOB ---

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A Modest IPv6-wg Proposal
by Shane Kerr 25 Sep '09

25 Sep '09

All, I checked Geoff Huston's IPv4 estimate again today: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html Assuming he's correct, we have 4 more RIPE meetings until IANA runs out of IPv4 addresses: RIPE 59 (2009 Autumn) RIPE 60 (2010 Spring) RIPE 61 (2010 Autumn) RIPE 62 (2011 Spring) And... that's it! IANA is done with IPv4! Then the real fun begins as we enter the RIR IPv4 run-out period. We then have 1 or 2 RIPE meetings until the RIRs run out of IPv4 blocks to hand out: RIPE 63 (2011 Autumn) RIPE 64 (2012 Spring... maybe) So... what is going on in the RIPE IPv6 working group at this critical phase? Since the last RIPE meeting there have been messages from the RIPE NCC about their IPv6ActNow stuff and a survey, and some messages about the minutes. The only thread with any content has been one about IPv6 minimum allocation sizes (thanks Marco!). This is not much. Since this group isn't actually doing anything, I propose we: 1. Shut down this working group after the next RIPE meeting. 2. Move discussion of IPv6 issues to other working groups (since "IPv6 issues" will become "IP issues" very soon anyway). Cheers, -- Shane

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Simulation of the future IPv4 world at RIPE meetings?
by Shane Kerr 25 Sep '09

25 Sep '09

All, Perhaps we should begin preparing ourselves for the future IPv4 world by simulating various levels of IPv4 exhaustion at future RIPE meetings? I can imagine a few stages: 1. We can no longer give public IPv4 addresses to attendees. RFC 1918 for everyone, but with 1:1 mapping to public addresses. 2. The entire meeting gets NAT'ed to a single /24. 3. The entire meeting gets NAT'ed to a single IP address. Of course, this is the easy side. People are already accustomed to living behind NAT with their laptops. (They might be a little more annoyed when Google Maps won't work because there aren't enough ports to handle all the simultaneous open connections.) To be fair, we should also disable IPv4 for access to the meeting itself, as this is the first problem that new entrants to the Internet will have. But this is a huge burden on RIPE NCC staff and remote participants, so this will have to wait. :) -- Shane

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Call for agenda items RIPE59
by David Kessens 09 Sep '09

09 Sep '09

Hi, I would like to hereby solicit your input for agenda items for our working group session for RIPE 59. We are scheduled to meet: Tue Oct 6, 16.00-18.00, Corinthia Hotel, Lisbon, Portugal All items that are of interest for the operational community regarding the deployment of IPv6 will be considered. Whether a proposal is brief or long, with powerpoint or no powerpoint, you have your own presentation or just a suggestion for a presenter, all proposals are welcome. Thanks, David Kessens ---

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Re: ipv6-wg digest, Vol 1 #413 - 3 msgs
by Turchanyi Geza 08 Sep '09

08 Sep '09

Hi, for your MPLS backbone you still could reserve a few IPv4 addresses to use. The first place where you won't have enough addresses will be at your costumer's side. (All ISP has more costumers than backbone routers) Do you know while the Broadband Forum has no clear ideas even now how to support IPv6? This is a bit more important question, I think... Best, Geza On 9/8/09, ipv6-wg-request(a)ripe.net <ipv6-wg-request(a)ripe.net> wrote: > Send ipv6-wg mailing list submissions to > ipv6-wg(a)ripe.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ipv6-wg > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > ipv6-wg-request(a)ripe.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > ipv6-wg-admin(a)ripe.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of ipv6-wg digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Re: LDP over Ipv6 (Isacco Fontana) > 2. Re: Re: LDP over Ipv6 (Gert Doering) > 3. Re: Re: LDP over Ipv6 (Mark Tinka) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 17:36:13 +0200 > From: Isacco Fontana <isacco.fontana(a)trentinonetwork.it> > To: mtinka(a)globaltransit.net > CC: ipv6-wg(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [ipv6-wg] Re: LDP over Ipv6 > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > --------------010708050001040605090703 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Do you think we can start discussion with big vendors (Cisco/Juniper) ? > > Mark Tinka ha scritto: >> On Monday 07 September 2009 05:06:47 am Isacco Fontana=20 >> wrote: >> >> =20 >>> I think this (LPD over ipv6) is not a customer >>> (isp/carrier) demand but a real problem when RIRs stop to >>> allocate ipv4 addresses. How ISP/Carriers can build a new >>> mpls backbone If big vendor not support the IPv6 over >>> LDP and isp can't make request for new ipv4 blocks ? >>> =20 >> >> Given how much money vendors are making from MPLS, it might=20 >> be safe to say they'll have support for it when v4 runs out.=20 >> The only question is which customer will be big enough for=20 >> them to get it in there :-). >> >> My main concern is, given how much traffic is being carried=20 >> by MPLS today (for better or worse), the earlier vendors put=20 >> out native support for it in v6, the quicker bugs can be=20 >> worked out. Even if support became available today, I'd=20 >> probably feel safer not deploying it at least 3 releases=20 >> from when it's launched, looking at the current state of v6=20 >> debug (or lack thereof) for folk that have deployed it. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Mark. >> =20 > > > --=20 > > Ing. Isacco Fontana > > Trentino Network s.r.l. > A socio Unico > > Direzione Servizi > Responsabile Area Ingegneria di Rete > > Via Gilli, 2 - 38100 TRENTO > Tel (+39) 0461.020200 > Fax (+39) 0461.020201 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Cap. Soc. sottoscritto =A4 7.573.248,00 i.v. - REG. IMP. C.F. e P. IVA 0= > 1904880224 E-mail: sede(a)trentinonetwork.it > Societ=E0 soggetta a direzione e controllo da parte della Provincia Auton= > oma di Trento. C.F. e P. IVA 00337460224 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > --------------010708050001040605090703 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-15 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> > <html> > <head> > <meta content=3D"text/html;charset=3DISO-8859-15" > http-equiv=3D"Content-Type"> > </head> > <body bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"> > Do you think we can start discussion with big vendors (Cisco/Juniper) ?<b= > r> > <br> > Mark Tinka ha scritto: > <blockquote cite=3D"mid:200909071256.17702.mtinka@globaltransit.net" > type=3D"cite"> > <pre wrap=3D"">On Monday 07 September 2009 05:06:47 am Isacco Fontana=20 > wrote: > > </pre> > <blockquote type=3D"cite"> > <pre wrap=3D"">I think this (LPD over ipv6) is not a customer > (isp/carrier) demand but a real problem when RIRs stop to > allocate ipv4 addresses. How ISP/Carriers can build a new > mpls backbone If big vendor not support the IPv6 over > LDP and isp can't make request for new ipv4 blocks ? > </pre> > </blockquote> > <pre wrap=3D""> > Given how much money vendors are making from MPLS, it might=20 > be safe to say they'll have support for it when v4 runs out.=20 > The only question is which customer will be big enough for=20 > them to get it in there :-). > > My main concern is, given how much traffic is being carried=20 > by MPLS today (for better or worse), the earlier vendors put=20 > out native support for it in v6, the quicker bugs can be=20 > worked out. Even if support became available today, I'd=20 > probably feel safer not deploying it at least 3 releases=20 > from when it's launched, looking at the current state of v6=20 > debug (or lack thereof) for folk that have deployed it. > > Cheers, > > Mark. > </pre> > </blockquote> > <br> > <br> > <pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20 > > Ing. Isacco Fontana > > Trentino Network s.r.l. > A socio Unico > > Direzione Servizi > Responsabile Area Ingegneria di Rete > > Via Gilli, 2 - 38100 TRENTO > Tel (+39) 0461.020200 > Fax (+39) 0461.020201 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Cap. Soc. sottoscritto =A4 7.573.248,00 i.v. - REG. IMP. C.F. e P. IVA 0= > 1904880224 E-mail: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:s= > ede(a)trentinonetwork.it">sede(a)trentinonetwork.it</a> > Societ=E0 soggetta a direzione e controllo da parte della Provincia Auton= > oma di Trento. C.F. e P. IVA 00337460224 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > -------------------------------------------------------</pre> > </body> > </html> > > --------------010708050001040605090703-- > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 17:39:12 +0200 > From: Gert Doering <gert(a)space.net> > To: Isacco Fontana <isacco.fontana(a)trentinonetwork.it> > Cc: mtinka(a)globaltransit.net, ipv6-wg(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [ipv6-wg] Re: LDP over Ipv6 > > Hi, > > On Mon, Sep 07, 2009 at 05:36:13PM +0200, Isacco Fontana wrote: >> Do you think we can start discussion with big vendors (Cisco/Juniper) ? > > Of course. Go to your vendor, tell him "we are not going to buy your > gear if you are not shipping LDP-over-IPv6"! > > If you're waving with enough money, they might even listen. But as long > as everybody is just grumbling to himself, the vendors might truthfully > say "noone has asked yet". > > Gert > -- > Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 128645 > > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: Mark Tinka <mtinka(a)globaltransit.net> > Reply-To: mtinka(a)globaltransit.net > Organization: Global Transit International > To: Isacco Fontana <isacco.fontana(a)trentinonetwork.it> > Subject: Re: [ipv6-wg] Re: LDP over Ipv6 > Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 09:08:11 +0800 > Cc: ipv6-wg(a)ripe.net > > --nextPart1744977.BctdEMcGiX > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Disposition: inline > > On Monday 07 September 2009 11:36:13 pm Isacco Fontana=20 > wrote: > >> Do you think we can start discussion with big vendors >> (Cisco/Juniper) ? > > Gert is right, the more we "collectively" speak to our=20 > vendors, the quicker they will likely implement the=20 > technology (it's not new, it's already been documented). > > =46or instance, I've been pushing Cisco and Juniper for an=20 > MPLS control plane for v6 for nearly 2 years now, but this=20 > isn't enough. Vendors tend to listen if: > > a) there is a collective. > > or > > b) as Gert and myself have already mentioned, you're waving > wads of cash their way. > > Cheers, > > Mark. > > --nextPart1744977.BctdEMcGiX > Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc > Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iQIcBAABAgAGBQJKpa57AAoJEGcZuYTeKm+GhrgQAKRZt6scEjKCuwXqcJizc4AX > bv5D27EYduzotX1POj1PM/VCQmt/PunMZJ9V0BIyYiNKu2k7tR+x7+Ki/kM0GrvZ > Bhj2vyXyXCOx41DFfL8Qrj3htJolNTj5cLbuxSq/F5NmgD2XsqxtbOd+orGLu4Ch > BzJG1/Rf+sotzobSVmrOB+47LCNrAbXYLH2MseFFw/JeMQUK+7XOX7gqx8V5qtjs > Sm8ovQEoYvguelW79mZxwH35SeGZO44m2SJnJxX8o21GG+jiN6PY1q3haJO10ycN > dg7ZKic2r9g9h40T6ajeCCI5zgGXRUzrXJ9eXCaAbaxJfuKt/dOzdYBDwCkldYmo > 9sFQKkNmTzV/4uPDlrxPPfLEtlQUdcXqQVdjeWqoGPOdrLCZlV+GrpjZKBB5Qm9H > pR7TnxP8e1YVk4s+SqCW0f09PRn0Z+LJOonYyRHN9266WduNRfMcm+MNomRkeIlN > fNl9aDAPer2tzrxbLTbUN+fPMNZJy32FwLuoumkQ80ts9q1/YVweb5pODPwlrBEk > 4lxQusghMw8Kx9CXk2TaZ9MzOFr7KXrOa+j6r+RBBjhIJDDrQcj96LVnBmfV4Mn2 > z1DuK4SzOF1NuCVgy3tJzSybYneJpf1bkB5gIL50nngBlnjV36CWSEyObjdxUE4n > dED+kJlqDSaPTMwobLp3 > =xvej > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --nextPart1744977.BctdEMcGiX-- > > > > > End of ipv6-wg Digest >

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IPv6 Deployment Monitoring Survey Closed
by Paul Rendek 15 Jul '09

15 Jul '09

[Apologies for duplicates] Dear Colleagues, The IPv6 Deployment Monitoring Survey, conducted by TNO and GNKS Consult in cooperation with the RIPE NCC and sponsored by the European Commission, has now closed. More than 600 members of the RIPE community responded to the survey, which aims to collect data on the current and future use of IPv6 throughout the RIPE NCC service region. We wish to thank those from the community who took the time to complete the survey. The results of the IPv6 Deployment Monitoring Survey will be presented and discussed at RIPE 59 which takes place in Lisbon, Portugal from 5-9 October. More information and registration details are available at: http://ripe59.ripe.net/ The results of this survey will also be published on IPv6 Act Now website at: http://www.ipv6actnow.org If you have any questions about the survey or the results, please contact <ncc(a)ripe.net>. Regards, Paul Rendek Head of External Relations and Communications RIPE NCC

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Mimimum allocation sizes
by Marco Hogewoning 11 Jul '09

11 Jul '09

Hi there, Quick question which google can't seem to find an answer, can anybody tell where I can find a list of IPv6 blocks managed by the different registries and what the minimum allocation size is. I'm specifically looking for those blocks which contain allocations smaller then a /32. I've traced down RIPE and ARIN, but the other three seem to be hard to find. TIA, MarcoH

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IPv6 Deployment Monitoring Survey: Deadline Extended!
by Paul Rendek 06 Jul '09

06 Jul '09

[Apologies for duplicates] Dear Colleagues, The deadline for responding to the IPv6 Deployment Monitoring Survey has been extended to Friday, 10 July 2009. This survey is being conducted by TNO and GNKS Consult, working with the RIPE NCC and sponsored by the European Commission. The aim is to collect data on the current and future use of IPv6 throughout the RIPE NCC service region, and all members of the RIPE community are encouraged to participate. You can access the survey at: http://is-nri.com/take/?i=150597&h=1GwWe3dXXMcPrRrOw5s2yg The survey is composed of 16 questions and can be completed in 10-15 minutes. Results will be presented and discussed at RIPE 59 and published on IPv6 Act Now: http://ipv6actnow.org Please note that all data will be kept confidential at all times, and will only be disclosed on an aggregated level. For more information on the IPv6 Deployment Monitoring Survey, please see: http://www.ripe.net/news/ipv6-deployment-monitoring-survey.html We appreciate your time and interest in completing this survey. If you have any questions concerning the survey, please send an email to <info(a)gnksconsult.com>. Regards, Paul Rendek Head of External Relations and Communications RIPE NCC

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