Re: [ncc-services-wg] ncc-services-wg Digest, Vol 118, Issue 20
I still will not get tired of being surprised at how naive people who live in civilized European countries. Although, maybe it's just a cynicism. 1. The only reason why we are discussing this topic (limiting the rights of Ukrainian companies) is the aggression of the russians. They are the only ones who can steal blocks of addresses in Ukraine, threatening the holders of Internet resources with death. Instead of punishing the aggressor, you implement restrictions on the victim of aggression. -- I assume that this is cynicism. 2. If you did not know, notary services are not for free. We are all Ukrainians now actively sponsoring the Armed Forces of Ukraine who are the only guarantor of the security of our companies. And instead of sending funds to strengthen the defense of Ukraine, you want to implement on us the obligation to pay an additional fees for the notary services. Thank you so much for your "support". -- 3. As we have already determined, the only reason for your concern and maniacal desire to violently protect the resources of Ukrainian companies is russians. Also, everyone knows that hundreds of thousands of russists came not only to Ukraine, but also to dozens of countries of the European Union. And they can do whatever they want on the territory of the EU: the Skripal case, the Litvinenko case etc. The only difference is that Ukrainians have learned how to mix them with the soil. European countries do not know how to do this. So your companies are more vulnerable to the russians. Why don't you change the RIPE policy to limit the rights for companies throughout the territory of RIPE? Why don't you want to oblige European companies to pay for notary services during transfers as well or stop any transfers through all the RIPE countries at all? -- Cynicism? Yes cynicism. 4. Why don't you want to implement a single effective way to protect all companies within the RIPE —- blocking all transfers to a single criminal -- the russians??? And it will not be necessary to impose restrictions of the rights and freedoms for the European companies. But you won't do that - too much money comes from russists to RIPE, and everyone knows it. - You know nothing about European values, unless these values are refined mercantile cynicism. IMPLEMENT YOUR RESTRICTIONS FOR russia NOT FOR UKRAINE!! Or implement the same new policy for the whole RIPE region otherwise it will be discrimination of Ukraine based on national origin. Kind regards, Serhii пн, 19 груд. 2022 р. о 14:47 <ncc-services-wg-request@ripe.net> пише:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs (Sander Steffann) 2. Re: Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs (Max Tulyev) 3. Re: Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs (Olha Sira) 4. Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks (Hans Petter Holen) 5. Re: Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks (Sander Steffann) 6. Re: Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks (Max Tulyev)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 14:50:06 +0100 From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> To: Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> Cc: ncc-services-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs Message-ID: <1CC41DBA-FB29-44BF-9142-17F268C35DF1@steffann.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi Max,
Of course they will not reply.
We are seeing now the finish of "afrinicization" of RIPE NCC. NCC is no more community and consensus driving. They works on behalf on some "crystal clear" government people, probably for free, but I'm not sure.
Please keep such unfounded accusations to yourself Sander
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 15:56:37 +0200 From: Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> To: ncc-services-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs Message-ID: <5618df1b-1012-cd57-e7a0-1455c83193fa@ukraine.su> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
If I see no clear reason for some action, I will come up with the most appropriate one. And it is not good for sure. Because it looks like this I said.
19.12.22 15:50, Sander Steffann ????:
Hi Max,
Of course they will not reply.
We are seeing now the finish of "afrinicization" of RIPE NCC. NCC is no more community and consensus driving. They works on behalf on some "crystal clear" government people, probably for free, but I'm not sure.
Please keep such unfounded accusations to yourself Sander
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 14:15:10 +0000 From: Olha Sira <vasylevych@gmail.com> To: "ncc-services-wg@ripe.net" <ncc-services-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs Message-ID: < CAENpxnRwX2iSbMNig5i93SMDd_P99Sb3XY5WY07yEQk9zbu-Ug@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
+1
On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 1:38 PM Matthias Merkel < matthias.merkel@staclar.com> wrote:
Delays are expected, but it now seems like transfers are paused entirely. If this is not the case then perhaps the NCC should clarify?
? Matthias Merkel [image: Sent from Front]
On December 19, 2022 at 2:37 PM GMT+1 pbd.ripe.ncc.services.wg@urdn.com.ua wrote:
Matthias Merkel <matthias.merkel@staclar.com> wrote:
Can we get any kind of official statement from the RIPE NCC on the current status on this?
The explanation for the extra delays was made on this mailing list by Hans Petter Holen on Wed, 2 Nov 2022:
As an immediate response, all transfer requests from Ukrainian networks will be escalated to me until further notice. We will of course continue to apply the highest levels of due diligence when reviewing these requests. This will add some amount of delay, which I think is entirely appropriate under the circumstances and given the seriousness of the concerns that have been raised.
However, if the delays would become too important, I suppose this decision should be reversed.
--
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg
--
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Dear colleague, To my mind you don't see the latest RIPE event. Or didn't look carefully. I'm fully agree with point 1 of your speech. That is, there is a problem. But there's no solution, or a legitimate solution. Stop transfer from UA to RU LIRs? Ok, but such transfers usual not to RU LIRs. Accept transfers from UA to UA? Okay, but what territory of the UA at the time of confirmation is under occupation? And how RIPE NCC know it's surely? And RIPE NCC is not blocking transfers by himself. The part of ua LIRs ask NCC to do that. Temporarily. Until this working group adopts the necessary changes to the relevant polices. So no cynicism and naivety. Or something similar. That's if it's fair.
On 19 Dec 2022, at 23:09, Serhii Khomenko <khomenko.serhii.m@gmail.com> wrote:
I still will not get tired of being surprised at how naive people who live in civilized European countries. Although, maybe it's just a cynicism.
1. The only reason why we are discussing this topic (limiting the rights of Ukrainian companies) is the aggression of the russians. They are the only ones who can steal blocks of addresses in Ukraine, threatening the holders of Internet resources with death. Instead of punishing the aggressor, you implement restrictions on the victim of aggression. -- I assume that this is cynicism.
2. If you did not know, notary services are not for free. We are all Ukrainians now actively sponsoring the Armed Forces of Ukraine who are the only guarantor of the security of our companies. And instead of sending funds to strengthen the defense of Ukraine, you want to implement on us the obligation to pay an additional fees for the notary services. Thank you so much for your "support".
--
3. As we have already determined, the only reason for your concern and maniacal desire to violently protect the resources of Ukrainian companies is russians.
Also, everyone knows that hundreds of thousands of russists came not only to Ukraine, but also to dozens of countries of the European Union. And they can do whatever they want on the territory of the EU: the Skripal case, the Litvinenko case etc. The only difference is that Ukrainians have learned how to mix them with the soil. European countries do not know how to do this. So your companies are more vulnerable to the russians. Why don't you change the RIPE policy to limit the rights for companies throughout the territory of RIPE? Why don't you want to oblige European companies to pay for notary services during transfers as well or stop any transfers through all the RIPE countries at all?
-- Cynicism? Yes cynicism.
4. Why don't you want to implement a single effective way to protect all companies within the RIPE —- blocking all transfers to a single criminal -- the russians??? And it will not be necessary to impose restrictions of the rights and freedoms for the European companies. But you won't do that - too much money comes from russists to RIPE, and everyone knows it.
- You know nothing about European values, unless these values are refined mercantile cynicism.
IMPLEMENT YOUR RESTRICTIONS FOR russia NOT FOR UKRAINE!! Or implement the same new policy for the whole RIPE region otherwise it will be discrimination of Ukraine based on national origin.
Kind regards, Serhii
пн, 19 груд. 2022 р. о 14:47 <ncc-services-wg-request@ripe.net> пише: Send ncc-services-wg mailing list submissions to ncc-services-wg@ripe.net
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ncc-services-wg-request@ripe.net
You can reach the person managing the list at ncc-services-wg-owner@ripe.net
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of ncc-services-wg digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs (Sander Steffann) 2. Re: Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs (Max Tulyev) 3. Re: Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs (Olha Sira) 4. Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks (Hans Petter Holen) 5. Re: Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks (Sander Steffann) 6. Re: Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks (Max Tulyev)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 14:50:06 +0100 From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> To: Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> Cc: ncc-services-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs Message-ID: <1CC41DBA-FB29-44BF-9142-17F268C35DF1@steffann.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi Max,
Of course they will not reply.
We are seeing now the finish of "afrinicization" of RIPE NCC. NCC is no more community and consensus driving. They works on behalf on some "crystal clear" government people, probably for free, but I'm not sure.
Please keep such unfounded accusations to yourself Sander
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 15:56:37 +0200 From: Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> To: ncc-services-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs Message-ID: <5618df1b-1012-cd57-e7a0-1455c83193fa@ukraine.su> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
If I see no clear reason for some action, I will come up with the most appropriate one. And it is not good for sure. Because it looks like this I said.
19.12.22 15:50, Sander Steffann ????:
Hi Max,
Of course they will not reply.
We are seeing now the finish of "afrinicization" of RIPE NCC. NCC is no more community and consensus driving. They works on behalf on some "crystal clear" government people, probably for free, but I'm not sure.
Please keep such unfounded accusations to yourself Sander
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 14:15:10 +0000 From: Olha Sira <vasylevych@gmail.com> To: "ncc-services-wg@ripe.net" <ncc-services-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs Message-ID: <CAENpxnRwX2iSbMNig5i93SMDd_P99Sb3XY5WY07yEQk9zbu-Ug@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
+1
On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 1:38 PM Matthias Merkel <matthias.merkel@staclar.com> wrote:
Delays are expected, but it now seems like transfers are paused entirely. If this is not the case then perhaps the NCC should clarify?
? Matthias Merkel [image: Sent from Front]
On December 19, 2022 at 2:37 PM GMT+1 pbd.ripe.ncc.services.wg@urdn.com.ua wrote:
Matthias Merkel <matthias.merkel@staclar.com> wrote:
Can we get any kind of official statement from the RIPE NCC on the current status on this?
The explanation for the extra delays was made on this mailing list by Hans Petter Holen on Wed, 2 Nov 2022:
As an immediate response, all transfer requests from Ukrainian networks will be escalated to me until further notice. We will of course continue to apply the highest levels of due diligence when reviewing these requests. This will add some amount of delay, which I think is entirely appropriate under the circumstances and given the seriousness of the concerns that have been raised.
However, if the delays would become too important, I suppose this decision should be reversed.
--
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg
--
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg
If you do not have a legitimate solution - just do not touch anything. If _some_ of UA LIRs are afraid of something - help _them_. Why make a lot of problems to _all_ UA LIRs by knowlingly non-legitimate solution, wrapped to a bureaucratic justification ("it is not a ban, it is an escalation")? 20.12.22 01:19, Serg Galat пише:
Dear colleague,
To my mind you don't see the latest RIPE event. Or didn't look carefully.
I'm fully agree with point 1 of your speech. That is, there is a problem. But there's no solution, or a legitimate solution.
Stop transfer from UA to RU LIRs? Ok, but such transfers usual not to RU LIRs. Accept transfers from UA to UA? Okay, but what territory of the UA at the time of confirmation is under occupation? And how RIPE NCC know it's surely?
And RIPE NCC is not blocking transfers by himself. The part of ua LIRs ask NCC to do that. Temporarily. Until this working group adopts the necessary changes to the relevant polices.
So no cynicism and naivety. Or something similar. That's if it's fair.
On 19 Dec 2022, at 23:09, Serhii Khomenko <khomenko.serhii.m@gmail.com> wrote:
I still will not get tired of being surprised at how naive people who live in civilized European countries. Although, maybe it's just a cynicism.
1. The only reason why we are discussing this topic (limiting the rights of Ukrainian companies) is the aggression of the russians. They are the only ones who can steal blocks of addresses in Ukraine, threatening the holders of Internet resources with death. Instead of punishing the aggressor, you implement restrictions on the victim of aggression. -- I assume that this is cynicism.
2. If you did not know, notary services are not for free. We are all Ukrainians now actively sponsoring the Armed Forces of Ukraine who are the only guarantor of the security of our companies. And instead of sending funds to strengthen the defense of Ukraine, you want to implement on us the obligation to pay an additional fees for the notary services. Thank you so much for your "support".
--
3. As we have already determined, the only reason for your concern and maniacal desire to violently protect the resources of Ukrainian companies is russians.
Also, everyone knows that hundreds of thousands of russists came not only to Ukraine, but also to dozens of countries of the European Union. And they can do whatever they want on the territory of the EU: the Skripal case, the Litvinenko case etc. The only difference is that Ukrainians have learned how to mix them with the soil. European countries do not know how to do this. So your companies are more vulnerable to the russians. Why don't you change the RIPE policy to limit the rights for companies throughout the territory of RIPE? Why don't you want to oblige European companies to pay for notary services during transfers as well or stop any transfers through all the RIPE countries at all?
-- Cynicism? Yes cynicism.
4. Why don't you want to implement a single effective way to protect all companies within the RIPE —- blocking all transfers to a single criminal -- the russians??? And it will not be necessary to impose restrictions of the rights and freedoms for the European companies. But you won't do that - too much money comes from russists to RIPE, and everyone knows it.
- You know nothing about European values, unless these values are refined mercantile cynicism.
IMPLEMENT YOUR RESTRICTIONS FOR russia NOT FOR UKRAINE!! Or implement the same new policy for the whole RIPE region otherwise it will be discrimination of Ukraine based on national origin.
Kind regards, Serhii
пн, 19 груд. 2022 р. о 14:47 <ncc-services-wg-request@ripe.net> пише: Send ncc-services-wg mailing list submissions to ncc-services-wg@ripe.net
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ncc-services-wg-request@ripe.net
You can reach the person managing the list at ncc-services-wg-owner@ripe.net
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of ncc-services-wg digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs (Sander Steffann) 2. Re: Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs (Max Tulyev) 3. Re: Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs (Olha Sira) 4. Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks (Hans Petter Holen) 5. Re: Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks (Sander Steffann) 6. Re: Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks (Max Tulyev)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 14:50:06 +0100 From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> To: Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> Cc: ncc-services-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs Message-ID: <1CC41DBA-FB29-44BF-9142-17F268C35DF1@steffann.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi Max,
Of course they will not reply.
We are seeing now the finish of "afrinicization" of RIPE NCC. NCC is no more community and consensus driving. They works on behalf on some "crystal clear" government people, probably for free, but I'm not sure.
Please keep such unfounded accusations to yourself Sander
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 15:56:37 +0200 From: Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> To: ncc-services-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs Message-ID: <5618df1b-1012-cd57-e7a0-1455c83193fa@ukraine.su> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
If I see no clear reason for some action, I will come up with the most appropriate one. And it is not good for sure. Because it looks like this I said.
19.12.22 15:50, Sander Steffann ????:
Hi Max,
Of course they will not reply.
We are seeing now the finish of "afrinicization" of RIPE NCC. NCC is no more community and consensus driving. They works on behalf on some "crystal clear" government people, probably for free, but I'm not sure.
Please keep such unfounded accusations to yourself Sander
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 14:15:10 +0000 From: Olha Sira <vasylevych@gmail.com> To: "ncc-services-wg@ripe.net" <ncc-services-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs Message-ID: <CAENpxnRwX2iSbMNig5i93SMDd_P99Sb3XY5WY07yEQk9zbu-Ug@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
+1
On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 1:38 PM Matthias Merkel <matthias.merkel@staclar.com> wrote:
Delays are expected, but it now seems like transfers are paused entirely. If this is not the case then perhaps the NCC should clarify?
? Matthias Merkel [image: Sent from Front]
On December 19, 2022 at 2:37 PM GMT+1 pbd.ripe.ncc.services.wg@urdn.com.ua wrote:
Matthias Merkel <matthias.merkel@staclar.com> wrote:
Can we get any kind of official statement from the RIPE NCC on the current status on this?
The explanation for the extra delays was made on this mailing list by Hans Petter Holen on Wed, 2 Nov 2022:
As an immediate response, all transfer requests from Ukrainian networks will be escalated to me until further notice. We will of course continue to apply the highest levels of due diligence when reviewing these requests. This will add some amount of delay, which I think is entirely appropriate under the circumstances and given the seriousness of the concerns that have been raised.
However, if the delays would become too important, I suppose this decision should be reversed.
--
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg
--
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg
Those, when you proposed and RIPE NCC agreed to suspend payment of membership for ua LIRs that's fine. Although this is not in the policy, and the decision was made personally by the board. Is this also an illegitimate decision? Or did the NCC hear the opinion of the community? Or to hear the opinion of the community - is it to hear what Mr. Tuliev says?
On 20 Dec 2022, at 12:12, Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> wrote:
If you do not have a legitimate solution - just do not touch anything.
If _some_ of UA LIRs are afraid of something - help _them_.
Why make a lot of problems to _all_ UA LIRs by knowlingly non-legitimate solution, wrapped to a bureaucratic justification ("it is not a ban, it is an escalation")?
20.12.22 01:19, Serg Galat пише:
Dear colleague, To my mind you don't see the latest RIPE event. Or didn't look carefully. I'm fully agree with point 1 of your speech. That is, there is a problem. But there's no solution, or a legitimate solution. Stop transfer from UA to RU LIRs? Ok, but such transfers usual not to RU LIRs. Accept transfers from UA to UA? Okay, but what territory of the UA at the time of confirmation is under occupation? And how RIPE NCC know it's surely? And RIPE NCC is not blocking transfers by himself. The part of ua LIRs ask NCC to do that. Temporarily. Until this working group adopts the necessary changes to the relevant polices. So no cynicism and naivety. Or something similar. That's if it's fair.
On 19 Dec 2022, at 23:09, Serhii Khomenko <khomenko.serhii.m@gmail.com> wrote:
I still will not get tired of being surprised at how naive people who live in civilized European countries. Although, maybe it's just a cynicism.
1. The only reason why we are discussing this topic (limiting the rights of Ukrainian companies) is the aggression of the russians. They are the only ones who can steal blocks of addresses in Ukraine, threatening the holders of Internet resources with death. Instead of punishing the aggressor, you implement restrictions on the victim of aggression. -- I assume that this is cynicism.
2. If you did not know, notary services are not for free. We are all Ukrainians now actively sponsoring the Armed Forces of Ukraine who are the only guarantor of the security of our companies. And instead of sending funds to strengthen the defense of Ukraine, you want to implement on us the obligation to pay an additional fees for the notary services. Thank you so much for your "support".
--
3. As we have already determined, the only reason for your concern and maniacal desire to violently protect the resources of Ukrainian companies is russians.
Also, everyone knows that hundreds of thousands of russists came not only to Ukraine, but also to dozens of countries of the European Union. And they can do whatever they want on the territory of the EU: the Skripal case, the Litvinenko case etc. The only difference is that Ukrainians have learned how to mix them with the soil. European countries do not know how to do this. So your companies are more vulnerable to the russians. Why don't you change the RIPE policy to limit the rights for companies throughout the territory of RIPE? Why don't you want to oblige European companies to pay for notary services during transfers as well or stop any transfers through all the RIPE countries at all?
-- Cynicism? Yes cynicism.
4. Why don't you want to implement a single effective way to protect all companies within the RIPE —- blocking all transfers to a single criminal -- the russians??? And it will not be necessary to impose restrictions of the rights and freedoms for the European companies. But you won't do that - too much money comes from russists to RIPE, and everyone knows it.
- You know nothing about European values, unless these values are refined mercantile cynicism.
IMPLEMENT YOUR RESTRICTIONS FOR russia NOT FOR UKRAINE!! Or implement the same new policy for the whole RIPE region otherwise it will be discrimination of Ukraine based on national origin.
Kind regards, Serhii
пн, 19 груд. 2022 р. о 14:47 <ncc-services-wg-request@ripe.net> пише: Send ncc-services-wg mailing list submissions to ncc-services-wg@ripe.net
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ncc-services-wg-request@ripe.net
You can reach the person managing the list at ncc-services-wg-owner@ripe.net
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of ncc-services-wg digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs (Sander Steffann) 2. Re: Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs (Max Tulyev) 3. Re: Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs (Olha Sira) 4. Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks (Hans Petter Holen) 5. Re: Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks (Sander Steffann) 6. Re: Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks (Max Tulyev)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 14:50:06 +0100 From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> To: Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> Cc: ncc-services-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs Message-ID: <1CC41DBA-FB29-44BF-9142-17F268C35DF1@steffann.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi Max,
Of course they will not reply.
We are seeing now the finish of "afrinicization" of RIPE NCC. NCC is no more community and consensus driving. They works on behalf on some "crystal clear" government people, probably for free, but I'm not sure.
Please keep such unfounded accusations to yourself Sander
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 15:56:37 +0200 From: Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> To: ncc-services-wg@ripe.net Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs Message-ID: <5618df1b-1012-cd57-e7a0-1455c83193fa@ukraine.su> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
If I see no clear reason for some action, I will come up with the most appropriate one. And it is not good for sure. Because it looks like this I said.
19.12.22 15:50, Sander Steffann ????:
Hi Max,
Of course they will not reply.
We are seeing now the finish of "afrinicization" of RIPE NCC. NCC is no more community and consensus driving. They works on behalf on some "crystal clear" government people, probably for free, but I'm not sure.
Please keep such unfounded accusations to yourself Sander
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 14:15:10 +0000 From: Olha Sira <vasylevych@gmail.com> To: "ncc-services-wg@ripe.net" <ncc-services-wg@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs Message-ID: <CAENpxnRwX2iSbMNig5i93SMDd_P99Sb3XY5WY07yEQk9zbu-Ug@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
+1
On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 1:38 PM Matthias Merkel <matthias.merkel@staclar.com> wrote:
Delays are expected, but it now seems like transfers are paused entirely. If this is not the case then perhaps the NCC should clarify?
? Matthias Merkel [image: Sent from Front]
On December 19, 2022 at 2:37 PM GMT+1 pbd.ripe.ncc.services.wg@urdn.com.ua wrote:
Matthias Merkel <matthias.merkel@staclar.com> wrote:
Can we get any kind of official statement from the RIPE NCC on the current status on this?
The explanation for the extra delays was made on this mailing list by Hans Petter Holen on Wed, 2 Nov 2022:
As an immediate response, all transfer requests from Ukrainian networks will be escalated to me until further notice. We will of course continue to apply the highest levels of due diligence when reviewing these requests. This will add some amount of delay, which I think is entirely appropriate under the circumstances and given the seriousness of the concerns that have been raised.
However, if the delays would become too important, I suppose this decision should be reversed.
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Hi, On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 12:12:59PM +0200, Max Tulyev wrote:
If you do not have a legitimate solution - just do not touch anything.
If _some_ of UA LIRs are afraid of something - help _them_.
Why make a lot of problems to _all_ UA LIRs by knowlingly non-legitimate solution, wrapped to a bureaucratic justification ("it is not a ban, it is an escalation")?
Could you people please stop making noise now? We have heard you. And: it's not the RIPE NCC's primary role to ensure that you can make money by selling IP resources. It's role is to ensure correctness of the registry and avoiding unauthorized transfers. Could the NCC be a bit more transparent? Definitely. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
On 20 Dec 2022, at 15:40, Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Could you people please stop making noise now?
And if the ranting has to continue, could the ranters *please* use meaningful and relevant Subject: headers? And for bonus point, trim their replies instead of appending the entire text of the message that’s being replied to. There’s no need to append the entire thread of every posting over and over again. There’s no need to append the entire thread of every posting over and over again. There’s no need to append the entire thread of every posting over and over again. Repetition like this is annoying and unnecessary, isn’t it?
Hi Serg and colleagues, You asked good questions. On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 11:20 PM Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear colleague,
To my mind you don't see the latest RIPE event. Or didn't look carefully.
I'm fully agree with point 1 of your speech. That is, there is a problem. But there's no solution, or a legitimate solution.
Stop transfer from UA to RU LIRs? Ok, but such transfers usual not to RU LIRs.
Do you have an example, how it happened before? Or is it just concerns that it might happen theoretically?
Accept transfers from UA to UA? Okay, but what territory of the UA at the time of confirmation is under occupation? And how RIPE NCC know it's surely?
Ukraine is a very big country. It consists of 24 regions and Crimea, which was annexed in 2014. Each region might be compared to Belgium by its area. 14 regions of Ukraine haven't had occupied territories at all.There are completely deoccupied regions, like Kyiv region, Chernihiv region, and Summy region. There are many observers from the Ukrainian side, international and even from the Russian side, who print maps of the frontline. RIPE NCC could use a map and determine how far the front line is from the place of registration of the entity. For the moment 4 regions have occupied territories, 20 don't. For example, only Kharkiv region area is 31 415 square km, Belgium is 30 688 square km. It is huge territory and it wasn't occupied totally at the beginning of war and it is slightly possible that such a big region will be occupied at once and no one will notice this. If we look on the map of Kharkiv region and find Krasnohrad it is obvious it can't be occupied without massive offensive, which obviously will be noticed. As each change on the frontline is widely discussed in the European press and TV. Please note that Kharkiv region is 1/24 of whole Ukraine. If there will be a new offensive to the North of Ukraine and Kyiv, It will mean a second front opening for Russians and for the European community. If this happens, it will be widely discussed. So RIPE NCC will know the next day. But if there was a request a day before, why to postfone it?
And RIPE NCC is not blocking transfers by himself. The part of ua LIRs ask NCC to do that. Temporarily. Honestly, no one asked to block UA to UA transfers, except those several people who came to the meeting. But such transfers are blocked too.
Until this working group adopts the necessary changes to the relevant polices.
So no cynicism and naivety. Or something similar. That's if it's fair.
Regards, Olha Sira
Hello,
On 21 Dec 2022, at 22:00, Olha Sira <vasylevych@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Serg and colleagues,
You asked good questions. On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 11:20 PM Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear colleague,
To my mind you don't see the latest RIPE event. Or didn't look carefully.
I'm fully agree with point 1 of your speech. That is, there is a problem. But there's no solution, or a legitimate solution.
Stop transfer from UA to RU LIRs? Ok, but such transfers usual not to RU LIRs.
Do you have an example, how it happened before? Or is it just concerns that it might happen theoretically?
No one who did ones will will give you proof! Why? Because their relatives and friends are still under occupation. Is this clear? Theoretically? May be, but not for me.
Accept transfers from UA to UA? Okay, but what territory of the UA at the time of confirmation is under occupation? And how RIPE NCC know it's surely?
Ukraine is a very big country. It consists of 24 regions and Crimea, which was annexed in 2014. Each region might be compared to Belgium by its area. 14 regions of Ukraine haven't had occupied territories at all.There are completely deoccupied regions, like Kyiv region, Chernihiv region, and Summy region. There are many observers from the Ukrainian side, international and even from the Russian side, who print maps of the frontline. RIPE NCC could use a map and determine how far the front line is from the place of registration of the entity. For the moment 4 regions have occupied territories, 20 don't. For example, only Kharkiv region area is 31 415 square km, Belgium is 30 688 square km. It is huge territory and it wasn't occupied totally at the beginning of war and it is slightly possible that such a big region will be occupied at once and no one will notice this. If we look on the map of Kharkiv region and find Krasnohrad it is obvious it can't be occupied without massive offensive, which obviously will be noticed. As each change on the frontline is widely discussed in the European press and TV. Please note that Kharkiv region is 1/24 of whole Ukraine. If there will be a new offensive to the North of Ukraine and Kyiv, It will mean a second front opening for Russians and for the European community. If this happens, it will be widely discussed. So RIPE NCC will know the next day. But if there was a request a day before, why to postfone it?
You need to see what Athina Fragkouli said on RIPE85 event. She spoke about this very situation. Clearly understandable and unambiguous
And RIPE NCC is not blocking transfers by himself. The part of ua LIRs ask NCC to do that. Temporarily. Honestly, no one asked to block UA to UA transfers, except those several people who came to the meeting. But such transfers are blocked too.
Until this working group adopts the necessary changes to the relevant polices.
So no cynicism and naivety. Or something similar. That's if it's fair.
Regards, Olha Sira
— Serg Galat
The action those government people asked for touches *ALL* Ukrainian companies, and made a lot of harm to them. There should be a very strong reason to take this action for all regions, not only those in distress. We do not see it now. The NCC staff in case of the transfer pushes companies in distress regions either to move a legal address to the unoccupied territories, OR to change the registration of the company to a Russian laws. This case no restrictions for the transfers applied. So the transfers ban for Ukrainian companies does not protect the resource holders against the forced transfer on the occupied territories. As I know, there is NO BAN FOR THE TRANSFERS ON OCCUPIED TERRITORIES FOR THE RUSSIAN-BASED [ex-Ukrainian] COMPANIES. So we do not believe in the official reason of this ban, and do not believe in the existence of any of this forced transfers. "Just believe me" from one of the most corrupted government in the world officials and associated persons looks funny. Actions of NCC board against the community (absence of) consensus by that doubtful way with these doubtful actions, without clear explanations of what's happened - looks awful and danger for the future cooperation between RIPE and RIPE NCC. That's why NCC board should resign voluntarily now. 21.12.22 23:32, Serg Galat пише:
Stop transfer from UA to RU LIRs? Ok, but such transfers usual not to RU LIRs. Do you have an example, how it happened before? Or is it just concerns that it might happen theoretically?
No one who did ones will will give you proof! Why? Because their relatives and friends are still under occupation. Is this clear? Theoretically? May be, but not for me.
participants (6)
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Gert Doering -
Jim Reid -
Max Tulyev -
Olha Sira -
Serg Galat -
Serhii Khomenko