2007-01 Phase 2 Implementation: Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC
[Apologies for duplicates] Dear colleagues, We are pleased to announce that the RIPE NCC has implemented the second phase of "Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC". In this phase the RIPE NCC will contact all LIRs to request information regarding existing direct resources requested through that LIR. This will be done via the LIR Portal. All LIR Portal users will receive a notification email on 28 May 2009 detailing the process. Details of the implementation are available at: http://www.ripe.net/rs/pi-existing-assignments.html Timelines: Before September 2009: LIRs need to indicate which resources should stay with that LIR. This will affect the charging scheme for 2010. Before 31 December 2009: LIRs must upload contracts and registration papers for all resources still associated with that LIR. More information on the requirements of the contractual agreement can be found here: http://www.ripe.net/membership/lir-end-user-requirements.html Kind regards, Andrea Cima RIPE NCC
Andrea, the working day of 28th of May was just finished, but I don't get any e-mail ;) Really, there are two questions still open: 1. If some net is our customer, have the agreement with us, but was NOT registered with our LIR - what we should do? 2. The contract should include annual payments, and in good case we should put the actual sum inside the contract (instead of "please sign here you should pay wedontknowhowmuch later). The LIR billing scheme or even all the scheme candidates (I have to keep in mind the worst one for me when I deal with my users, of course) will appear later than we have to upload contracts. P.S. Will end users receive the notification directly from RIPE NCC "OK, we now have approved your contract, you can sleep relaxed" after the contract have been approved? I think it is a very very good idea. Andrea Cima wrote:
[Apologies for duplicates]
Dear colleagues,
We are pleased to announce that the RIPE NCC has implemented the second phase of "Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC".
In this phase the RIPE NCC will contact all LIRs to request information regarding existing direct resources requested through that LIR. This will be done via the LIR Portal. All LIR Portal users will receive a notification email on 28 May 2009 detailing the process.
Details of the implementation are available at: http://www.ripe.net/rs/pi-existing-assignments.html
Timelines:
Before September 2009: LIRs need to indicate which resources should stay with that LIR. This will affect the charging scheme for 2010.
Before 31 December 2009: LIRs must upload contracts and registration papers for all resources still associated with that LIR.
More information on the requirements of the contractual agreement can be found here: http://www.ripe.net/membership/lir-end-user-requirements.html
Kind regards,
Andrea Cima RIPE NCC
-- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253@FIDO)
Hi Max,
1. If some net is our customer, have the agreement with us, but was NOT registered with our LIR - what we should do?
That should not be a problem. The end user needs to have a contract with an LIR. It does not really matter which LIR it is, and the user can move between LIRs if they want. They have a provider independent resource after all :)
2. The contract should include annual payments, and in good case we should put the actual sum inside the contract (instead of "please sign here you should pay wedontknowhowmuch later). The LIR billing scheme or even all the scheme candidates (I have to keep in mind the worst one for me when I deal with my users, of course) will appear later than we have to upload contracts.
A good idea would be to leave the exact amount out of the contract and specify that the fee depends on the fee the RIPE NCC charges you. That way you won't get into trouble when the fees change later. - Sander
Sander Steffann wrote:
1. If some net is our customer, have the agreement with us, but was NOT registered with our LIR - what we should do?
That should not be a problem. The end user needs to have a contract with an LIR. It does not really matter which LIR it is, and the user can move between LIRs if they want. They have a provider independent resource after all :)
Sure. But I ask for the procedure. Whom send the contract to? There is nothing about it in the current version of the LIR Portal.
2. The contract should include annual payments, and in good case we should put the actual sum inside the contract (instead of "please sign here you should pay wedontknowhowmuch later). The LIR billing scheme or even all the scheme candidates (I have to keep in mind the worst one for me when I deal with my users, of course) will appear later than we have to upload contracts.
A good idea would be to leave the exact amount out of the contract and specify that the fee depends on the fee the RIPE NCC charges you. That way you won't get into trouble when the fees change later.
It is a VERY BAD idea. None of healthly minded financial people sign that ;) -- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253@FIDO)
Hi Max,
A good idea would be to leave the exact amount out of the contract and specify that the fee depends on the fee the RIPE NCC charges you. That way you won't get into trouble when the fees change later.
It is a VERY BAD idea. None of healthly minded financial people sign that ;)
Why? You get charged for the resources that those end users have. It is not strange to charge them for that amount. There is no way for them to keep those resources without paying the amount set in the charging scheme by the RIPE NCC General Meeting. The same as an LIR who has to pay the RIPE NCC membership fees set in the same charging scheme. You as an LIR have signed a contract with the NCC without knowing the exact amount that you will be charged next year. Why would an end user be any different? Something like "The yearly fee for Provider Independent resources is determined by the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme. We will send you a bill for the amount specified in that Charging Scheme". Your lawyers should be able to put that in some acceptable language for in a contract :) - Sander
Hi Sander, this is a bad idea because of right now it is unpredictable at all. How much it will cost? 1 EUR? 10? 50? 100? 500? 1000? 1000000? There is a maximum payment a company can carry for their PI/AS. If the payment will be higher - they can't, and will have to return their objects. This sum is different for different companies. And if I offer NNN EUR - one said "no, thanks". If I can't even say how much payment can be - they scare, don't sign anything and at least will wait for charging scheme, making actualisation process much harder for RIPE NCC. The worst case if some of LIRs will take risks and charge users for for example 50 EUR, and then after got a bill with 100 EUR per user, went out of business in 1st quarter of 2010. Their customers will have to find out a new LIR, pay again for same year, and say, fairly, "what the f&&#%^#-heads sitting in this, hmmm, RIPE NCC!!!". P.S. When I became a LIR, I saw that yearly payment for ten years is ABOUT 1200 EUR. It doesn't really matter will it be 1108 or 1345 from year to year. But it really matter is it 1200 or 12000 or 120000. Sander Steffann wrote:
Hi Max,
A good idea would be to leave the exact amount out of the contract and specify that the fee depends on the fee the RIPE NCC charges you. That way you won't get into trouble when the fees change later.
It is a VERY BAD idea. None of healthly minded financial people sign that ;)
Why? You get charged for the resources that those end users have. It is not strange to charge them for that amount. There is no way for them to keep those resources without paying the amount set in the charging scheme by the RIPE NCC General Meeting. The same as an LIR who has to pay the RIPE NCC membership fees set in the same charging scheme. You as an LIR have signed a contract with the NCC without knowing the exact amount that you will be charged next year. Why would an end user be any different?
Something like "The yearly fee for Provider Independent resources is determined by the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme. We will send you a bill for the amount specified in that Charging Scheme". Your lawyers should be able to put that in some acceptable language for in a contract :)
- Sander
-- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253@FIDO)
Max, you can charge your customers without any profit. This will be fair and clear. They will pay exactly the amount was described in charging scheme and was approved by the GM. But you want to have a profit. So you will have some risks. Relax, this situation is usual. Friday, May 29, 2009, 12:42:45 AM, you wrote: MT> Hi Sander, MT> this is a bad idea because of right now it is unpredictable at all. How MT> much it will cost? 1 EUR? 10? 50? 100? 500? 1000? 1000000? There is a MT> maximum payment a company can carry for their PI/AS. If the payment will MT> be higher - they can't, and will have to return their objects. This sum MT> is different for different companies. And if I offer NNN EUR - one said MT> "no, thanks". If I can't even say how much payment can be - they scare, MT> don't sign anything and at least will wait for charging scheme, making MT> actualisation process much harder for RIPE NCC. MT> The worst case if some of LIRs will take risks and charge users for for MT> example 50 EUR, and then after got a bill with 100 EUR per user, went MT> out of business in 1st quarter of 2010. Their customers will have to MT> find out a new LIR, pay again for same year, and say, fairly, "what the MT> f&&#%^#-heads sitting in this, hmmm, RIPE NCC!!!". MT> P.S. When I became a LIR, I saw that yearly payment for ten years is MT> ABOUT 1200 EUR. It doesn't really matter will it be 1108 or 1345 from MT> year to year. But it really matter is it 1200 or 12000 or 120000. MT> Sander Steffann wrote:
Hi Max,
A good idea would be to leave the exact amount out of the contract and specify that the fee depends on the fee the RIPE NCC charges you. That way you won't get into trouble when the fees change later.
It is a VERY BAD idea. None of healthly minded financial people sign that ;)
Why? You get charged for the resources that those end users have. It is not strange to charge them for that amount. There is no way for them to keep those resources without paying the amount set in the charging scheme by the RIPE NCC General Meeting. The same as an LIR who has to pay the RIPE NCC membership fees set in the same charging scheme. You as an LIR have signed a contract with the NCC without knowing the exact amount that you will be charged next year. Why would an end user be any different?
Something like "The yearly fee for Provider Independent resources is determined by the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme. We will send you a bill for the amount specified in that Charging Scheme". Your lawyers should be able to put that in some acceptable language for in a contract :)
- Sander
-- Sergey
Sergey, it not depends on want I to earn some money or not want. It is about will all the scheme survive or not. Anyway, I can write in contract "the sum from RIPE NCC billing scheme added NN percent for LIR service" - and the question is I can't explain users how much they will pay, even approximately. Even in that case, some of billing scheme candidates don't have clear price for each object. Sergey Myasoedov wrote:
Max,
you can charge your customers without any profit. This will be fair and clear. They will pay exactly the amount was described in charging scheme and was approved by the GM. But you want to have a profit. So you will have some risks. Relax, this situation is usual.
-- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253@FIDO)
On Thu, 28 May 2009, Sander Steffann wrote:
Why? You get charged for the resources that those end users have. It is not strange to charge them for that amount. There is no way for them to keep those resources without paying the amount set in the charging scheme by the RIPE NCC General Meeting. The same as an LIR who has to pay the RIPE NCC membership fees set in the same charging scheme. You as an LIR have signed a contract with the NCC without knowing the exact amount that you will be charged next year. Why would an end user be any different?
When we allocated ASNs (just an ASN - not PI space) to some organizations 13 years ago we did not assume that RIPE would start charging per ASN allocation *and* retroactively as well. May not be legally valid from an EU standpoint, but we do not have the resources to contest it. So we just eat the cost. -Hank
Dear Max, Max Tulyev wrote:
1. If some net is our customer, have the agreement with us, but was NOT registered with our LIR - what we should do?
Phase 2 of the policy implementation 'Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC' focuses on the independent resources assigned through your LIR only. Even though not directly related to this policy implementation, we are finalising a procedural RIPE document which outlines the steps to be taken in the case you mention above.
2. The contract should include annual payments, and in good case we should put the actual sum inside the contract (instead of "please sign here you should pay wedontknowhowmuch later). The LIR billing scheme or even all the scheme candidates (I have to keep in mind the worst one for me when I deal with my users, of course) will appear later than we have to upload contracts.
Contracts can be uploaded until 31 December 2009. With regards to the Charging Scheme, the Charing Scheme 2010 is decided upon in the autumn General Meeting which takes place in conjunction with the RIPE 59 at the beginning of October. The draft document is published 4 weeks in advance of this meeting.
P.S. Will end users receive the notification directly from RIPE NCC "OK, we now have approved your contract, you can sleep relaxed" after the contract have been approved? I think it is a very very good idea.
We intentionally decided not to do this. The communication channel between the End User of an LIR and the RIPE NCC, is the Sponsoring LIR which the End User signs the contract with. I hope this clarifies. If not, don't hesitate to contact me. Kind regards, Andrea Cima RIPE NCC
Andrea Cima wrote:
[Apologies for duplicates]
Dear colleagues,
We are pleased to announce that the RIPE NCC has implemented the second phase of "Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC".
In this phase the RIPE NCC will contact all LIRs to request information regarding existing direct resources requested through that LIR. This will be done via the LIR Portal. All LIR Portal users will receive a notification email on 28 May 2009 detailing the process.
Details of the implementation are available at: http://www.ripe.net/rs/pi-existing-assignments.html
Timelines:
Before September 2009: LIRs need to indicate which resources should stay with that LIR. This will affect the charging scheme for 2010.
Before 31 December 2009: LIRs must upload contracts and registration papers for all resources still associated with that LIR.
More information on the requirements of the contractual agreement can be found here: http://www.ripe.net/membership/lir-end-user-requirements.html
Kind regards,
Andrea Cima RIPE NCC
participants (5)
-
Andrea Cima -
Hank Nussbacher -
Max Tulyev -
Sander Steffann -
Sergey Myasoedov