While reviewing the suggested RIPE NCC End User Agreement located at: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/resource-management/independent-resources/i... I see in section 4.3.a: "The End User shall use the Independent Internet Number Resources assigned to it for internal purposes within its own network only." Legal counsel has stated that based on the text provided, any IP address block or ASN assigned could only be used within a company/corporate/organization Intranet and publishing such resource on the global Internet would violate the End User Agreement. Who has used this draft agreement and did you change the text? Strange that no one has spotted this before. Regards, Hank
Hi, We spotted this, I'll have to check the exact wording we use, but I do recall asking to change this to something like : "The End User shall use the Independent Internet Number Resources assigned to it for internal purposes *announced from* its own network only." We did note however, 4.3(c) states: ". The End User shall use the assigned Independent Internet Number Resources solely for the purpose as specified in the request" If the request was to provide for a piece of PI that would be internet routed (I.e the language and detail in the request explained exactly what was being achieved), we observed that the use of 'solely' may produce a conflict. Dave. On 19/03/2013 08:21, "Hank Nussbacher" <hank@efes.iucc.ac.il> wrote:
While reviewing the suggested RIPE NCC End User Agreement located at: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/resource-management/independent-resources /independent-assignment-request-and-maintenance-agreement-1 I see in section 4.3.a:
"The End User shall use the Independent Internet Number Resources assigned to it for internal purposes within its own network only."
Legal counsel has stated that based on the text provided, any IP address block or ASN assigned could only be used within a company/corporate/organization Intranet and publishing such resource on the global Internet would violate the End User Agreement.
Who has used this draft agreement and did you change the text? Strange that no one has spotted this before.
Regards, Hank
Dear Hank,
While reviewing the suggested RIPE NCC End User Agreement located at: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/resource-management/independent-resources/i... I see in section 4.3.a:
"The End User shall use the Independent Internet Number Resources assigned to it for internal purposes within its own network only."
Legal counsel has stated that based on the text provided, any IP address block or ASN assigned could only be used within a company/corporate/organization Intranet and publishing such resource on the global Internet would violate the End User Agreement.
I am afraid the word "use" is misinterpreted by the legal counsel. In the context of the End User Agreement, use means use for identifying a host, i.e. the quoted text does not allow the End User to configure an IP address form that range on a host that is not in their own network. This is further clarified in point 4.3.b. I am sure you are aware of all I quote below, but I gathered these to help you in clarifying the issue with the legal counsel. Please note that the End User agreement says in Article 1 Definitions: "Assignment: act by which the RIPE NCC enables the End User to use Independent Internet Number Resources for its internal use. This may involve the publication in the RIPE Database of the End User as the assignee of the respective Internet Number Resources." You can have a look at http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-553 "IPv4 Address Allocation and Assignment Policies for the RIPE NCC Service Region" The paragraph 2.0.1. says: "Public IP addresses are assigned to be globally unique according to the goals described in Section 3 of this document." and paragraph 3.0.1. says: "Uniqueness: Each public IPv4 address worldwide must be unique. This is an absolute requirement guaranteeing that every host on the Internet can be uniquely identified." The world wide uniqueness is indispensable for the reliable communication on the Internet (and would definitely not be relevant in case you used the IP addresses in your own network only - see RFC1918). I hope this helps. Best regards, Janos
Who has used this draft agreement and did you change the text? Strange that no one has spotted this before.
Regards, Hank
At 10:09 19/03/2013 +0100, Janos Zsako wrote:
Dear Hank,
While reviewing the suggested RIPE NCC End User Agreement located at: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/resource-management/independent-resources/i... I see in section 4.3.a:
"The End User shall use the Independent Internet Number Resources assigned to it for internal purposes within its own network only."
Legal counsel has stated that based on the text provided, any IP address block or ASN assigned could only be used within a company/corporate/organization Intranet and publishing such resource on the global Internet would violate the End User Agreement.
I am afraid the word "use" is misinterpreted by the legal counsel. In the context of the End User Agreement, use means use for identifying a host, i.e. the quoted text does not allow the End User to configure an IP address form that range on a host that is not in their own network. This is further clarified in point 4.3.b.
In our context the End User wants us to "park" an ASN under our LIR. Your interpretatio of "use" - "used to to identify a host" - does not cover the ASN instance. -Hank
I am sure you are aware of all I quote below, but I gathered these to help you in clarifying the issue with the legal counsel.
Please note that the End User agreement says in Article 1 Definitions: "Assignment: act by which the RIPE NCC enables the End User to use Independent Internet Number Resources for its internal use. This may involve the publication in the RIPE Database of the End User as the assignee of the respective Internet Number Resources."
You can have a look at http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-553 "IPv4 Address Allocation and Assignment Policies for the RIPE NCC Service Region"
The paragraph 2.0.1. says: "Public IP addresses are assigned to be globally unique according to the goals described in Section 3 of this document." and paragraph 3.0.1. says: "Uniqueness: Each public IPv4 address worldwide must be unique. This is an absolute requirement guaranteeing that every host on the Internet can be uniquely identified."
The world wide uniqueness is indispensable for the reliable communication on the Internet (and would definitely not be relevant in case you used the IP addresses in your own network only - see RFC1918).
I hope this helps.
Best regards, Janos
Who has used this draft agreement and did you change the text? Strange that no one has spotted this before.
Regards, Hank
On 19 Mar 2013, at 09:34, Hank Nussbacher wrote:
In our context the End User wants us to "park" an ASN under our LIR. Your interpretatio of "use" - "used to to identify a host" - does not cover the ASN instance.
Indeed so. The same problem came to light during work with HEAnet to prepare an EUA under which UCD's historical (but not legacy) ASN could be registered. I believe that the NCC's model EUA is overdue for review and that, pending such review, the NCC needs to be ready to give the contracting parties (Sponsoring LIR and End User) in each specific case appropriate freedom to construct an EUA which addresses the needs of that case. /Niall
At 10:16 19/03/2013 +0000, Niall O'Reilly wrote:
I believe that the NCC's model EUA is overdue for review and that, pending such review, the NCC needs to be ready to give the contracting parties (Sponsoring LIR and End User) in each specific case appropriate freedom to construct an EUA which addresses the needs of that case.
Members are not required to use the EUA as drafted by RIPE NCC. It is merely there as a basis for whatever we might wish to put together based on the policies listed here: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/resource-management/independent-resources/r... Regards, -Hank
Dear Hank,
While reviewing the suggested RIPE NCC End User Agreement located at: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/resource-management/independent-resources/i... I see in section 4.3.a:
"The End User shall use the Independent Internet Number Resources assigned to it for internal purposes within its own network only."
Legal counsel has stated that based on the text provided, any IP address block or ASN assigned could only be used within a company/corporate/organization Intranet and publishing such resource on the global Internet would violate the End User Agreement.
I am afraid the word "use" is misinterpreted by the legal counsel. In the context of the End User Agreement, use means use for identifying a host, i.e. the quoted text does not allow the End User to configure an IP address form that range on a host that is not in their own network. This is further clarified in point 4.3.b.
In our context the End User wants us to "park" an ASN under our LIR. Your interpretatio of "use" - "used to to identify a host" - does not cover the ASN instance.
You are right, I am sorry, I was concentrating on IP addresses as for ASNs it makes even less sense to use them within the company only. If we are talking about ASNs, the document we have to look at is: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-525 (Autonomous System (AS) Number Assignment Policies). Here we find the following (2.0 Assignment Criteria): "In order to help decrease global routing complexity, a new AS Number should be used only if a new external routing policy is required, see RFC1930." Paragraph 3.0 (Returning AS Numbers) also says: "If an organisation no longer uses the AS Number, it must be returned to the public pool of AS Numbers. The RIPE NCC can then reassign the AS Number to another organisation." Therefore it is clear that an ASN is not intended to be used "internally", moreover, you are not supposed to "park" it. I hope this helps. Best regards, Janos
-Hank
I am sure you are aware of all I quote below, but I gathered these to help you in clarifying the issue with the legal counsel.
Please note that the End User agreement says in Article 1 Definitions: "Assignment: act by which the RIPE NCC enables the End User to use Independent Internet Number Resources for its internal use. This may involve the publication in the RIPE Database of the End User as the assignee of the respective Internet Number Resources."
You can have a look at http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-553 "IPv4 Address Allocation and Assignment Policies for the RIPE NCC Service Region"
The paragraph 2.0.1. says: "Public IP addresses are assigned to be globally unique according to the goals described in Section 3 of this document." and paragraph 3.0.1. says: "Uniqueness: Each public IPv4 address worldwide must be unique. This is an absolute requirement guaranteeing that every host on the Internet can be uniquely identified."
The world wide uniqueness is indispensable for the reliable communication on the Internet (and would definitely not be relevant in case you used the IP addresses in your own network only - see RFC1918).
I hope this helps.
Best regards, Janos
Who has used this draft agreement and did you change the text? Strange that no one has spotted this before.
Regards, Hank
At 11:48 19/03/2013 +0100, Janos Zsako wrote:
In our context the End User wants us to "park" an ASN under our LIR. Your interpretatio of "use" - "used to to identify a host" - does not cover the ASN instance.
Therefore it is clear that an ASN is not intended to be used "internally", moreover, you are not supposed to "park" it.
Obviously you did not understand what I meant by "park". There are many resources out there - listed in the RIPE whois DB, actively being used, announced and routed on the Internet, but due to historical reasons, those resources are not listed under any LIR - they are just free hanging. RIPE NCC has been sending out hundreds (thousands?) of emails to all those "hanging" resources (mainly historical ones) - informing them that the resource has to be listed under a LIR and if not, it will be revoked. For lack of a better term, for a resource that exists, and is being used , and merely needs to be "assigned" to some LIR, I have used the term " to park". Regards, Hank
Dear Hank,
In our context the End User wants us to "park" an ASN under our LIR. Your interpretatio of "use" - "used to to identify a host" - does not cover the ASN instance.
Therefore it is clear that an ASN is not intended to be used "internally", moreover, you are not supposed to "park" it.
Obviously you did not understand what I meant by "park".
You are right, thank you for the explanation. I had the impression that "parking" implied also that it will not be used (like parking a car: leave it somewhere while you do not use it). Anyway, it is clear that ASNs are also not meant to be used internally, as the legal counsel interpreted the wording used in the EUA. Best regards, Janos
There are many resources out there - listed in the RIPE whois DB, actively being used, announced and routed on the Internet, but due to historical reasons, those resources are not listed under any LIR - they are just free hanging. RIPE NCC has been sending out hundreds (thousands?) of emails to all those "hanging" resources (mainly historical ones) - informing them that the resource has to be listed under a LIR and if not, it will be revoked. For lack of a better term, for a resource that exists, and is being used , and merely needs to be "assigned" to some LIR, I have used the term " to park".
Regards, Hank
Janos Zsako wrote:
Dear Hank,
In our context the End User wants us to "park" an ASN under our LIR. Your interpretatio of "use" - "used to to identify a host" - does not cover the ASN instance.
Therefore it is clear that an ASN is not intended to be used "internally", moreover, you are not supposed to "park" it.
Obviously you did not understand what I meant by "park".
You are right, thank you for the explanation. I had the impression that "parking" implied also that it will not be used (like parking a car: leave it somewhere while you do not use it).
...or parking a domain for later re-sale. That was *my* association and interpretation of the use of "park". :-) Wilfried.
Anyway, it is clear that ASNs are also not meant to be used internally, as the legal counsel interpreted the wording used in the EUA.
Best regards, Janos
There are many resources out there - listed in the RIPE whois DB, actively being used, announced and routed on the Internet, but due to historical reasons, those resources are not listed under any LIR - they are just free hanging. RIPE NCC has been sending out hundreds (thousands?) of emails to all those "hanging" resources (mainly historical ones) - informing them that the resource has to be listed under a LIR and if not, it will be revoked. For lack of a better term, for a resource that exists, and is being used , and merely needs to be "assigned" to some LIR, I have used the term " to park".
Regards, Hank
* Hank Nussbacher:
For lack of a better term, for a resource that exists, and is being used , and merely needs to be "assigned" to some LIR, I have used the term " to park".
I noticed that lack as well, but I usually refer to "sponsoring LIRs".
Hank Nussbacher wrote:
At 10:09 19/03/2013 +0100, Janos Zsako wrote:
Dear Hank,
While reviewing the suggested RIPE NCC End User Agreement located at: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/resource-management/independent-resources/i...
I see in section 4.3.a:
"The End User shall use the Independent Internet Number Resources assigned to it for internal purposes within its own network only."
Legal counsel has stated that based on the text provided, any IP address block or ASN assigned could only be used within a company/corporate/organization Intranet and publishing such resource on the global Internet would violate the End User Agreement.
I am afraid the word "use" is misinterpreted by the legal counsel. In the context of the End User Agreement, use means use for identifying a host, i.e. the quoted text does not allow the End User to configure an IP address form that range on a host that is not in their own network. This is further clarified in point 4.3.b.
In our context the End User wants us to "park" an ASN under our LIR. Your interpretatio of "use" - "used to to identify a host" - does not cover the ASN instance.
I do understand now that an AS# is a different story, but for completeness coming back to the general question... IIRC, the language used was chosen to make it clear, that PI space can not be divided up into smaller pieces and forwarded to other entities for use; in order to prevent operating an LIR out of PI space, rather than PA space.
-Hank
Wilfried.
I am sure you are aware of all I quote below, but I gathered these to help you in clarifying the issue with the legal counsel.
Please note that the End User agreement says in Article 1 Definitions: "Assignment: act by which the RIPE NCC enables the End User to use Independent Internet Number Resources for its internal use. This may involve the publication in the RIPE Database of the End User as the assignee of the respective Internet Number Resources."
You can have a look at http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-553 "IPv4 Address Allocation and Assignment Policies for the RIPE NCC Service Region"
The paragraph 2.0.1. says: "Public IP addresses are assigned to be globally unique according to the goals described in Section 3 of this document." and paragraph 3.0.1. says: "Uniqueness: Each public IPv4 address worldwide must be unique. This is an absolute requirement guaranteeing that every host on the Internet can be uniquely identified."
The world wide uniqueness is indispensable for the reliable communication on the Internet (and would definitely not be relevant in case you used the IP addresses in your own network only - see RFC1918).
I hope this helps.
Best regards, Janos
Who has used this draft agreement and did you change the text? Strange that no one has spotted this before.
Regards, Hank
participants (6)
-
David Freedman -
Florian Weimer -
Hank Nussbacher -
Janos Zsako -
Niall O'Reilly -
Wilfried Woeber