I replied, in all innocence, to the recent e-mail from NCC about the change to allocation objects - commenting on how an LIR like me cannot actually update the object themselves. Don't point me to the LIR portal - without a working fax number I cannot get an account. Been there, done that. Anyhow, I get back: -- quote -- The RIPE-NCC hostmaster distribution robot has extracted the following additional information from it: RegID: No valid RegId found Ticket Number: NCC#2003101214 We will NOT handle this message. It is of type NOREGIDBOUNCE. It concerns an ongoing request. -- ... -- Er, when you have a valid ticket number *why the hell* do you need a regID as well ??? Some people really have too much spare time and write too much code that doesn't consider the real world. Anyone else object to the over-babying of inbound mail to the NCC ? The prices stay high, the work they are willing to do goes down. As usual. Peter
Mr Galbavy, On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:01:54 +0100 "Peter Galbavy" <peter.galbavy@knowtion.net> wrote:
I replied, in all innocence, to the recent e-mail from NCC about the change to allocation objects - commenting on how an LIR like me cannot actually update the object themselves. Don't point me to the LIR portal - without a working fax number I cannot get an account. Been there, done that.
When we created the LIR Portal, we tried to set up security measures to prevent accounts from being hijacked, which include receiving a fax. If members think that this process is unnecessary or cumbersome, we welcome suggestions for streamlined alternatives that retain a high level of authentication.
Anyhow, I get back:
-- quote -- The RIPE-NCC hostmaster distribution robot has extracted the following additional information from it:
RegID: No valid RegId found Ticket Number: NCC#2003101214
We will NOT handle this message. It is of type NOREGIDBOUNCE. It concerns an ongoing request. -- ... --
Er, when you have a valid ticket number *why the hell* do you need a regID as well ???
You normally don't: when an e-mail is received that contains a valid ticket number, and the ticket already has the regID set, that is enough for the distribution robot. Now, the problem that you spotted comes from the fact that we inadvertently did not set the regID in this batch of tickets. This is why the distribution robot rejected your reply. I apologise to you and to the other members for any delays this may have caused. This problem will not appear again, as we have now set all the regIDs in all the tickets that were created for this particular announcement, and any replies to those tickets should be accepted by the distribution robot.
Some people really have too much spare time and write too much code that doesn't consider the real world. Anyone else object to the over-babying of inbound mail to the NCC ? The prices stay high, the work they are willing to do goes down. As usual.
I agree with you: over-babying of inbound mail to the NCC is a bad thing. We are always interested to receive suggestions from our members on ways to improve our membership services. We can then relay these suggestions to the members for approval. We appreciate your input. Regards. -- Manuel Valente - Software Manager - RIPE NCC
Manuel Valente wrote:
When we created the LIR Portal, we tried to set up security measures to prevent accounts from being hijacked, which include receiving a fax. If members think that this process is unnecessary or cumbersome, we welcome suggestions for streamlined alternatives that retain a high level of authentication.
To give the history, when my company's fax machines died we never replaced it as 99.9% of our communications was e-mail based. I still see no reason to buy one "just for RIPE". This goes back to my old example of "You must be registered with your local Chamber of Commerce and send us a copy of the certificate to join RIPE" arguement. This was changed - but only after many years. So, in a context, I ask you as a member to remove the pointless requirement of having a fax machine / number and allowing other equially (if not more so) valid ways of authenticating INCLUDING the real-paper postal service. Pointless rules == Cash cow for otherwise redundent staff. rgds, -- Peter
Mr Galbavy, On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:39:06 +0100 "Peter Galbavy" <peter.galbavy@knowtion.net> wrote:
Manuel Valente wrote:
When we created the LIR Portal, we tried to set up security measures to prevent accounts from being hijacked, which include receiving a fax. If members think that this process is unnecessary or cumbersome, we welcome suggestions for streamlined alternatives that retain a high level of authentication.
To give the history, when my company's fax machines died we never replaced it as 99.9% of our communications was e-mail based. I still see no reason to buy one "just for RIPE". This goes back to my old example of "You must be registered with your local Chamber of Commerce and send us a copy of the certificate to join RIPE" arguement. This was changed - but only after many years.
So, in a context, I ask you as a member to remove the pointless requirement of having a fax machine / number and allowing other equially (if not more so) valid ways of authenticating INCLUDING the real-paper postal service.
The whole point of requiring a fax and an email to be sent to the requester of an LIR Portal account was to enable us to have a fully automated procedure for the creation of accounts: the fax and the email are both sent by a robot with no human intervention at all. At the time that we created this procedure, we expected - incorrectly it seems - that all the LIRs would own a fax machine or have a gateway to be able to receive faxes by other means. I take note of your proposal to allow requesters to receive this information by other means than faxes. I think it's valuable because it allows for more flexibility in the service that we provide to the members and, from a technical point of view, would not represent a problem for us to implement. But I would comment that, for instance, using a paper letter would require a staff member at the RIPE NCC to actually print the letter, stuff it in an envelope and send it. I would like the opinion of the other members on the proposal, considering its potential impact on the utilisation of the resources of the RIPE NCC.
Pointless rules == Cash cow for otherwise redundent staff.
Regards. -- Manuel Valente - Software Manager - RIPE NCC
Manuel Valente wrote:
I take note of your proposal to allow requesters to receive this information by other means than faxes. I think it's valuable because it allows for more flexibility in the service that we provide to the members and, from a technical point of view, would not represent a problem for us to implement. But I would comment that, for instance, using a paper letter would require a staff member at the RIPE NCC to actually print the letter, stuff it in an envelope and send it.
Er, perhaps you have got matters confused ? Can you please explain to me who works for who here ? Your objective should *NOT* be to minimise the work for RIPE staff but to provide a service - at economical cost - to the members who pay for it. If you can propose such a fully automated system that no staff are actually required for anything, then well done; I look forward to the membership fee going towards zero. If you are just trying to make life easy for yourselves, I am against this. Again, please remember who works for who.
I would like the opinion of the other members on the proposal, considering its potential impact on the utilisation of the resources of the RIPE NCC.
Does anyone else care ? Peter
--On Wednesday, October 08, 2003 11:33:04 +0100 Peter Galbavy <peter.galbavy@knowtion.net> wrote:
I would like the opinion of the other members on the proposal, considering its potential impact on the utilisation of the resources of the RIPE NCC. Does anyone else care ?
I have to say I agree with Peter in this thread. Regards Denesh (uk.aexiomus)
I agree with Peter too on this issue. Fax machines may not quite be obsolete but they are definitely on the way out. This is particularly so for ISPs which are more likely to embrace new technology. Fax machines are a liability and an unnecessary expense. Cheers Dave On Wed, 8 Oct 2003, Denesh Bhabuta wrote: ->--On Wednesday, October 08, 2003 11:33:04 +0100 Peter Galbavy -><peter.galbavy@knowtion.net> wrote: ->>> I would like the opinion of the other members on the proposal, ->>> considering its potential impact on the utilisation of the resources ->>> of the RIPE NCC. ->> Does anyone else care ? -> ->I have to say I agree with Peter in this thread. -> ->Regards ->Denesh (uk.aexiomus) ->
Hoi, | > I would like the opinion of the other members on the proposal, | > considering its potential impact on the utilisation of the resources | > of the RIPE NCC. | Does anyone else care ? Yes, at least one person in Holland does. With regard to the fax, I think it is wise to have at least some method of proof of human intervention. If you cannot send/receive faxes, I suggest you buy a fax machine in stead of going the route you suggested. With regard to the proposal. I do not think it is nessecary to push manhours against other forms of authentication/signup than those already in place. I find it amazing (and somewhat ironic) that you are suggesting that the folks at NCC should invest time in these types of "nobody wants them anyway" features. Pun intended. -- __________________ Met vriendelijke groet, /\ ___/ Pim van Pelt /- \ _/ Business Internet Trends BV PBVP1-RIPE /--- \/ __________________
Pim van Pelt wrote:
Yes, at least one person in Holland does. With regard to the fax, I think it is wise to have at least some method of proof of human intervention. If you cannot send/receive faxes, I suggest you buy a fax machine in stead of going the route you suggested.
Just for this ? No. Apart from sales people asking for fax numbers, we have had no need to replace the broken machine (and cancelled the line) ages ago.
With regard to the proposal. I do not think it is nessecary to push manhours against other forms of authentication/signup than those already in place. I find it amazing (and somewhat ironic) that you are suggesting that the folks at NCC should invest time in these types of "nobody wants them anyway" features.
No, what I want is there to always be a fallback and never ever a "twisty little maze of passages, all different" when dealing with RIPE. BTW If the fax system is automated, how does it help to verify someones ID ? Why can't a verification "page" be sent with or on the paper invoices for membership ? Peter
At 12:19 8/10/2003 +0100, Peter Galbavy wrote:
Pim van Pelt wrote:
Yes, at least one person in Holland does. With regard to the fax, I think it is wise to have at least some method of proof of human intervention. If you cannot send/receive faxes, I suggest you buy a fax machine in stead of going the route you suggested.
Just for this ? No. Apart from sales people asking for fax numbers, we have had no need to replace the broken machine (and cancelled the line) ages ago.
Peter, You will have to update your website :-) To contact us, please use one of the following: sales enquiries <mailto:sales@knowledge-matters.co.uk>sales@knowledge-matters.co.uk general information <mailto:info@knowledge-matters.co.uk>info@knowledge-matters.co.uk website issues <mailto:webmaster@knowledge-matters.co.uk>webmaster@knowledge-matters.co.uk fax +44 845 660 7666 :-)) voice/mobile +44 7710 348988 post Knowledge Matters Limited 22 Chesterfield Road LONDON N3 1PR United Kingdom --- Pieterjan d'Hertog, Expert IT Analyst Belgacom ANS/ROC Internet Expertise Center
Hi, On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 11:33:04AM +0100, Peter Galbavy wrote:
I would like the opinion of the other members on the proposal, considering its potential impact on the utilisation of the resources of the RIPE NCC. Does anyone else care ?
Actually, we do, and I agree with Manuel that everything that doesn't require manual interaction at the NCC will help reducing staff costs, and thus reducing fees. So "automated fax" sounds like a useful thing (and it isn't *that* hard, even for a small LIR, to find a fax modem in some closet and hook it up to a unused phone extention for a couple of days). Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 56883 (56833) SpaceNet AG Mail: netmaster@Space.Net Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Tel : +49-89-32356-0 80807 Muenchen Fax : +49-89-32356-299
participants (7)
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Dave Pratt -
Denesh Bhabuta -
Gert Doering -
Manuel Valente -
Peter Galbavy -
Pieterjan d'Hertog -
Pim van Pelt