Dear Sulev-Madis, all, We amended the terms and conditions in line with applicable legal GDPR requirements and intellectual property law. Under GDPR, personal data cannot be processed without a legal basis, which in the case of RIPE Atlas, would be the individual’s consent. Also, a trade name may not be used without permission from its legitimate owner. To clarify, if consent or permission is granted, RIPE Atlas probe hosts may use personal data or trade names. Regions and cities that do not reveal the identification of individuals are also not personal data and can be used. Best regards, Karolina Bochenek RIPE NCC
you know, i've learned to totally hate the gdpr and / or lawyers and / or laws and / or businesses within a year or so, every local and international company in the world who realized where i live, have written to me and told they want to slash all of my data off, resulting in loss of service when asked why, they cited the law, and when i asked if i can have limits extended as i'm here and responding and still want to be their client, they said no, as laws don't allow that. i have to be special "client client" and do magical actions to keep my status so what to do, hide my location? funnily privacy would save me here so, there's a regulation passed behind my back, by entity i didn't vote in favor for, that protects me even if don't want to we went from literal wild west to kindergarten when my fork is replaced by spoon because god forbid if i end up stabbing my tongue with it and fork company is afraid of being sued. by random bystander who saw this is this the world we really want to live in? besides ripe atlas could still be used to pinpoint things, whole idea of it is monitoring after all. within internet, which isn't really a computer network, was always a people network so maybe atlas should be closed althogether? people previously joked that i'm doxxing myself by telling them i run a probe because it's a single probe in my town and therefore it can't be anyone's but mine this was long before gdpr and in fact if whole gdpr would have been shrugged off as a pipe dream. like with chatcontrol and other ideas. last one even negates the gdpr the hell is this, previously anyone had rights to me data except me, now even i don't have right to it. but, funnily, "authorities" (about to) have that now there have been so many things happening in last 6 years that if i told them back then i have been asked how high fever i currently have. and yet now it's all ok and you can't even pinch yourself to wake up from this nightmare On October 10, 2025 11:13:16 AM GMT+03:00, Karolina Bochenek <kbochenek@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear Sulev-Madis, all, We amended the terms and conditions in line with applicable legal GDPR requirements and intellectual property law. Under GDPR, personal data cannot be processed without a legal basis, which in the case of RIPE Atlas, would be the individual’s consent. Also, a trade name may not be used without permission from its legitimate owner. To clarify, if consent or permission is granted, RIPE Atlas probe hosts may use personal data or trade names. Regions and cities that do not reveal the identification of individuals are also not personal data and can be used.
Best regards, Karolina Bochenek RIPE NCC
Thanks. But this does not answer the raised question at all. The question is that the terms and conditions mention the probe’s name. But probes do not have a name. Thus the terms and conditions refer to something that does not exist and are therefore nil. Probes have a a RIPE supplied number as an ID, and the probe host can enter information in the probe’s description field. If the terms and conditions were meant to apply to the description field, it should mention that. But I can assure you that that will lead to problems as was already mentioned. Many, many probes have for instance the provider name in the description, or the name of the manufacturer of the router. Let me quote Google AI: “ A "name" is a word used to identify a person, place, or thing, while a "description" is a detailed account of its characteristics.” Why the terms and conditions were changed is clear but the change is useless as it is now. Regards, Ernst J. Oud
On 10 Oct 2025, at 10:13, Karolina Bochenek <kbochenek@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear Sulev-Madis, all, We amended the terms and conditions in line with applicable legal GDPR requirements and intellectual property law. Under GDPR, personal data cannot be processed without a legal basis, which in the case of RIPE Atlas, would be the individual’s consent. Also, a trade name may not be used without permission from its legitimate owner. To clarify, if consent or permission is granted, RIPE Atlas probe hosts may use personal data or trade names. Regions and cities that do not reveal the identification of individuals are also not personal data and can be used.
Best regards, Karolina Bochenek RIPE NCC ----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/ripe-atlas.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/
Hello Ernst, Thank you for raising this point. The reference to ‘name’ here refers to the editable field next to the Description attribute where a probe host can describe or name the probe, since this is the only field where you can provide this information. While probes do not have a separate field explicitly labelled ‘name’, many users include a name in this description field so it serves the same function - allowing the host to provide identifying information for their probe. Best regards, Karolina Bochenek RIPE NCC
On 10 Oct 2025, at 12:02, Ernst J. Oud <ernstoud@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks. But this does not answer the raised question at all.
The question is that the terms and conditions mention the probe’s name. But probes do not have a name. Thus the terms and conditions refer to something that does not exist and are therefore nil.
Probes have a a RIPE supplied number as an ID, and the probe host can enter information in the probe’s description field.
If the terms and conditions were meant to apply to the description field, it should mention that. But I can assure you that that will lead to problems as was already mentioned. Many, many probes have for instance the provider name in the description, or the name of the manufacturer of the router.
Let me quote Google AI: “ A "name" is a word used to identify a person, place, or thing, while a "description" is a detailed account of its characteristics.”
Why the terms and conditions were changed is clear but the change is useless as it is now.
Regards,
Ernst J. Oud
On 10 Oct 2025, at 10:13, Karolina Bochenek <kbochenek@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear Sulev-Madis, all, We amended the terms and conditions in line with applicable legal GDPR requirements and intellectual property law. Under GDPR, personal data cannot be processed without a legal basis, which in the case of RIPE Atlas, would be the individual’s consent. Also, a trade name may not be used without permission from its legitimate owner. To clarify, if consent or permission is granted, RIPE Atlas probe hosts may use personal data or trade names. Regions and cities that do not reveal the identification of individuals are also not personal data and can be used.
Best regards, Karolina Bochenek RIPE NCC ----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/ripe-atlas.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/
Hi Karolina, but the essential question about ISP-Names is still unanswered. Can I name/describe the probe with the name of the ISP it is connected to? Regards, Thomas
yeah, can i put my nick there? isp? conn tech? town? and what about tags, we support system and user tags, including custom tags probes can be possible source of abuse and therefore it would be nice to contact host. if ripe doesn't answer fast, i can firewall or shut down a probe upon receiving direct abuse report. otherwise it would into my isp or / and ripe On October 16, 2025 5:30:58 PM GMT+03:00, "Thomas Schäfer" <tschaefer@t-online.de> wrote:
Hi Karolina,
but the essential question about ISP-Names is still unanswered. Can I name/describe the probe with the name of the ISP it is connected to?
Regards, Thomas
----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/ripe-atlas.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/
i am amazed at the number of engineers here who seem to have zero experience in avoiding infringing on others' copyrights. i learn new things evey day. randy
Hi Thomas, There isn't one answer that covers all possible cases. It depends. Usually, the name of the ISP is protected as intellectual property of the ISP (e.g. their trade name) and the relevant legislation applies. If this is the case, in general the permission of the ISP is required. Best regards, Karolina
On 16 Oct 2025, at 16:30, Thomas Schäfer <tschaefer@t-online.de> wrote:
Hi Karolina,
but the essential question about ISP-Names is still unanswered. Can I name/describe the probe with the name of the ISP it is connected to?
Regards, Thomas
----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/ripe-atlas.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/
On 16/10/2025 16:06, Karolina Bochenek wrote:
Hi Thomas,There isn't one answer that covers all possible cases. It depends. Usually, the name of the ISP is protected as intellectual property of the ISP (e.g. their trade name) and the relevant legislation applies. If this is the case, in general the permission of the ISP is required.Best regards,
How does that differ from the company name related to the probe's ASN that's reported in the Atlas portal? Why is that name "protected" in the description field, but is apparently OK when provided as factual information in other probe info? Ray
Karolina, I might be too dumb to understand legal documents but if the terms and conditions refer to “name” when there is no such parameter, then I believe the terms and conditions in regard to this clause are not applicable. Your explanation suggests that where it refers to “name” it should be read as meaning the “description”. Then why doesn’t the terms and conditions refer to “description” then? And as I pointed out “name” and “description” have totally different meaning. My name is “Ernst”, I might be described as “that handsome bloke”. It appears that I am talking to a brick wall here, so I will leave it at that. But keep in mind that if the terms and conditions are changed to mention “description” a lot of probe hosts run into problems. Regards, Ernst J. Oud
On 16 Oct 2025, at 16:26, Karolina Bochenek <kbochenek@ripe.net> wrote:
Hello Ernst, Thank you for raising this point. The reference to ‘name’ here refers to the editable field next to the Description attribute where a probe host can describe or name the probe, since this is the only field where you can provide this information. While probes do not have a separate field explicitly labelled ‘name’, many users include a name in this description field so it serves the same function - allowing the host to provide identifying information for their probe. Best regards, Karolina Bochenek RIPE NCC
On 10 Oct 2025, at 12:02, Ernst J. Oud <ernstoud@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks. But this does not answer the raised question at all.
The question is that the terms and conditions mention the probe’s name. But probes do not have a name. Thus the terms and conditions refer to something that does not exist and are therefore nil.
Probes have a a RIPE supplied number as an ID, and the probe host can enter information in the probe’s description field.
If the terms and conditions were meant to apply to the description field, it should mention that. But I can assure you that that will lead to problems as was already mentioned. Many, many probes have for instance the provider name in the description, or the name of the manufacturer of the router.
Let me quote Google AI: “ A "name" is a word used to identify a person, place, or thing, while a "description" is a detailed account of its characteristics.”
Why the terms and conditions were changed is clear but the change is useless as it is now.
Regards,
Ernst J. Oud
On 10 Oct 2025, at 10:13, Karolina Bochenek <kbochenek@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear Sulev-Madis, all, We amended the terms and conditions in line with applicable legal GDPR requirements and intellectual property law. Under GDPR, personal data cannot be processed without a legal basis, which in the case of RIPE Atlas, would be the individual’s consent. Also, a trade name may not be used without permission from its legitimate owner. To clarify, if consent or permission is granted, RIPE Atlas probe hosts may use personal data or trade names. Regions and cities that do not reveal the identification of individuals are also not personal data and can be used.
Best regards, Karolina Bochenek RIPE NCC ----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/ripe-atlas.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/
Hi Karolina, but the essential question about ISP-Names is still unanswered. Can I name/describe the probe with the name of the ISP it is connected to? Regards, Thomas ----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/ripe-atlas.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/
Can I name/describe the probe with the name of the ISP it is connected to?
IANAL, but ... i guess it would depend on if the ISP has trademarked their name. but maybe check with your lawyer before you or the ncc get a take-down letter :) randy
I used to be a Gynecologists (but as the movie says: "What's the difference?" :-)-O) but ignore take-down correspondence from foreign jurisdictions. That said, fair use would probably allow it anyway, el -- Sent from my iPhone On Oct 17, 2025 at 19:01 +0200, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>, wrote:
Can I name/describe the probe with the name of the ISP it is connected to?
IANAL, but ... i guess it would depend on if the ISP has trademarked their name. but maybe check with your lawyer before you or the ncc get a take-down letter :)
randy ----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/ripe-atlas.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/
tl;dr - what's the problem to be solved eith t&c's change? i bet almost all probes say isp because they somewhat promote isp, eg advertise it. by telling thei run in it's network. and same thing is seen from asn, automatically added i have never seen isp sucks in there but even that's not an issue. i haven't seen isp respond to those once newspaper wrote a piece of humor on chuck norris destroying telia estonia main building due questionable business decisions. it was work of art, complete with their registered trademark logos, and fake "reply" how they shoved the new offered vod tv show where it was told, despite did hurt a lot. isp didn't react ripe whois db is full of copyright information also is this probe naming thing ever a issue to this day? what's this pii / copyright info that ever would shared in probe info? i do not study a law but, like, logically speaking? who is protected from who? also why is ripe responsible? if only, they could remove it on request. why should ripe even respond at some cases? i think lots of people are lost their mind lately. remember all those pages where people write stuff. they are somehow hugely responsible what was written there. at worst, writer is disclosed but i wouldn't like prope owners to be disclosed to some shady party either what's the case that lead ripe do this anyway? also doesn't ripe atlas tos already say if you come in bad faith we can have that right to be taken away? we also need to fix the law because it seems like old farts, politicans, up there have screwed with us again. this is not the first time where socially good but technically bad people have come up with tech rules by themselves the sheer amount of cursewords that came from good willing tech people at gdpr is staggering. i don't talk with criminals but crime is by definition not following the laws so it won't affect them there was a comment here that basically said nerds never realize if they infringe. like, why one needs law anyway here? i never expected the ripe atlas being whipped into some kind of law issue. nor did i expect any of this discussion ever happen here i'm like, what the hell? oh, and isn't whole ripe a tech std org (etc) first? yeah this need to be fixed. maybe get rid of it althogether if it's not an issue. or you need to write even longer rules the recurring joke here is that european union regulates curvatures of bananas. they kind of did, but his this example of unnecessary regulation that won't protect anyone. there was no problem. if only, this opens a new door to people who want to use laws to make someone's life hell i bet this discussion continues on and on because techies don't just get it. probably noone infringed with anyone ever in their probe desc. and now we have endless discussion on what's name, is desc a name, etc On October 17, 2025 8:23:53 PM GMT+03:00, Eberhard W Lisse <el@lisse.na> wrote:
I used to be a Gynecologists (but as the movie says: "What's the difference?" :-)-O) but ignore take-down correspondence from foreign jurisdictions.
That said, fair use would probably allow it anyway,
el
-- Sent from my iPhone On Oct 17, 2025 at 19:01 +0200, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>, wrote:
Can I name/describe the probe with the name of the ISP it is connected to?
IANAL, but ... i guess it would depend on if the ISP has trademarked their name. but maybe check with your lawyer before you or the ncc get a take-down letter :)
randy ----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/ripe-atlas.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/
That said, fair use would probably allow it anyway,
clearly you are far more expert in this area than i. and my ddg fu is notoriously weak. but my IANAL read is that fair use applies to copyright, i.e. texts, not aervice/trade marks, i.e. names, and is not as strong in europe as the states [0]. randy [0] i looked up 'fair use europe' in wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_European_Union
my apologies. showing my age by using antique jargon
and my ddg fu is notoriously weak.
ddg == duck duck go, a different search engine, also in decline fu == expertiser, talent, ... randy
participants (8)
-
Eberhard W Lisse -
Ernst J. Oud -
Karolina Bochenek -
Randy Bush -
Ray Bellis -
stephane＠mouton.com -
Sulev-Madis Silber -
Thomas Schäfer