Communities & Codes of Conduct
Good Afternoon, In the last few days there have been a few emails about the draft CoC documents and, without any hat on, I want to address a few things. The RIPE community is special. It's amazing and wonderful and I love it… but also in so many ways, it is not special at all. It is not immune to the issues that have cropped up elsewhere and, importantly, also crop up in RIPE. This may be hard to hear but it's true. There are people who have left our community due to unwelcome attention, incidents of sexual harassment or repeatedly being told - through deeds if not words - that they are not welcome here. Worse are the people who could contribute so much to the operation of the Internet who look at our community, talk with others about it, and simply shake their heads - "That's not a place for me." These are the sad commonalities between communities, these are the ways in which RIPE is decidedly not special. A suitably, carefully, fairly, enforced Code of Conduct is just one of the many ways of making things better. It sets out the norms of behaviour and, importantly, it says "If you come here and people act badly towards you – we want to know about it, we will care, and we will act." If you want, you can think of it like MANRS or similar. It says that as a community, we have thought about things, that we acknowledge the issues we have, and we are working to improve them. This is not a court of law. It is a community driven effort, and so, like every other effort, we put our trust in those who we appoint, while maintaining the ability to course correct, knowing that there are checks and balances. In fact, I'm extremely happy for those that need to make reports that it isn't a court of law, as such courts, in countries around the world, have been seen to be adversarial towards those who seek justice for things like sexual assault. They put great hurt on the victims and have a truly awful record in bringing that justice. But again, this is not a court of law. Nor is it a way to attack the correct (or whatever passes for correct) use of grammar. But it can be a way to improve communications. It can be a way for a community to clearly say "That isn't a good way to interact, especially if we want to be open." There are many, many ways to have robust technical discussion without giving people the impression that their opinions are not wanted, as has happened many times in the past. And we are getting better at this as a community, but a CoC will help us more. As I have said repeatedly over many years, things happen at RIPE Meetings that the community does not, or should not, want to happen. The previous system gave the victims of those things someone to talk to, which is important, but little more than that. A CoC provides a means of recourse, which has been proven to work in communities around the world. There will be a few growing pains, for sure. There will be people who prejudge all of this, who decide that this changes the community too much. It might even cause them to leave. In many cases that will be a great pity and I hope they stick around - but if this prevents others leaving because they feel unsafe, or from being subjected to behaviour that all of us agree is unacceptable, then, well, I know where I'm happier. No process is perfect, we're humans, but this is a really, really good next step (and yes, I would say that, of course). I believe it will make a difference in who joins our community and for how long they stay. I believe it will, in some small way, improve the sector in which we all work. And thankfully my beliefs are backed up by what we've seen in other communities. Importantly, we can do other things at the same time and I look forward to what other new things this community does, and what excellent initiatives it continues, which will make it better for all. I know I will not convince everyone (this is not the first time I've had this discussion in a community, not even in the RIPE community), and I know that a lot of people in the community are convinced (or convinced enough) already, but I didn't want to stay silent on this thread. This is too important for the community right now, and for the future, for those of us here, and those of us we hope will join us. Thanks, Brian Brian Nisbet (he/him) Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270
Thank you Brian for your very reasoned response to this! On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 4:29 AM Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> wrote:
Good Afternoon,
In the last few days there have been a few emails about the draft CoC documents and, without any hat on, I want to address a few things.
The RIPE community is special. It's amazing and wonderful and I love it… but also in so many ways, it is not special at all. It is not immune to the issues that have cropped up elsewhere and, importantly, also crop up in RIPE. This may be hard to hear but it's true. There are people who have left our community due to unwelcome attention, incidents of sexual harassment or repeatedly being told - through deeds if not words - that they are not welcome here.
Worse are the people who could contribute so much to the operation of the Internet who look at our community, talk with others about it, and simply shake their heads - "That's not a place for me."
These are the sad commonalities between communities, these are the ways in which RIPE is decidedly not special.
A suitably, carefully, fairly, enforced Code of Conduct is just one of the many ways of making things better. It sets out the norms of behaviour and, importantly, it says "If you come here and people act badly towards you – we want to know about it, we will care, and we will act." If you want, you can think of it like MANRS or similar. It says that as a community, we have thought about things, that we acknowledge the issues we have, and we are working to improve them.
This is not a court of law. It is a community driven effort, and so, like every other effort, we put our trust in those who we appoint, while maintaining the ability to course correct, knowing that there are checks and balances. In fact, I'm extremely happy for those that need to make reports that it isn't a court of law, as such courts, in countries around the world, have been seen to be adversarial towards those who seek justice for things like sexual assault. They put great hurt on the victims and have a truly awful record in bringing that justice. But again, this is not a court of law.
Nor is it a way to attack the correct (or whatever passes for correct) use of grammar. But it can be a way to improve communications. It can be a way for a community to clearly say "That isn't a good way to interact, especially if we want to be open." There are many, many ways to have robust technical discussion without giving people the impression that their opinions are not wanted, as has happened many times in the past. And we are getting better at this as a community, but a CoC will help us more.
As I have said repeatedly over many years, things happen at RIPE Meetings that the community does not, or should not, want to happen. The previous system gave the victims of those things someone to talk to, which is important, but little more than that. A CoC provides a means of recourse, which has been proven to work in communities around the world.
There will be a few growing pains, for sure. There will be people who prejudge all of this, who decide that this changes the community too much. It might even cause them to leave. In many cases that will be a great pity and I hope they stick around - but if this prevents others leaving because they feel unsafe, or from being subjected to behaviour that all of us agree is unacceptable, then, well, I know where I'm happier.
No process is perfect, we're humans, but this is a really, really good next step (and yes, I would say that, of course). I believe it will make a difference in who joins our community and for how long they stay. I believe it will, in some small way, improve the sector in which we all work. And thankfully my beliefs are backed up by what we've seen in other communities.
Importantly, we can do other things at the same time and I look forward to what other new things this community does, and what excellent initiatives it continues, which will make it better for all.
I know I will not convince everyone (this is not the first time I've had this discussion in a community, not even in the RIPE community), and I know that a lot of people in the community are convinced (or convinced enough) already, but I didn't want to stay silent on this thread. This is too important for the community right now, and for the future, for those of us here, and those of us we hope will join us.
Thanks,
Brian
Brian Nisbet (he/him)
Service Operations Manager
HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network
1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland
+35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie
Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270
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Brian thanks for your contribution. I believe all see the need for a Code of Conduct. All see the need for a process to enforce the Code of Conduct. The issues are 'what is the intention of the CoC', 'how do we want to enforce the CoC' and 'what is the status of the CoC team'. It looks the CoC is more than a 'this is how one should behave during a RIPE event/mailinglist etc', it looks like to tool to actively create "more justice/diversity (Vesna)". These are two different goals. A proper and fair CoC process might lead to a more diverse participation, no need to skew this process. Is this an adversarial process whereby the role of the CoC team is neutral one, or is skewed towards complainers. For the majority of cases, as you stated, this will not be an issue. However we also need to think about the outliers, if this process is a 'guilty until proven innocent, but hey we do not like you so guilty as accused' that is not OK. No matter how much 'transformative justice' you want to deliver. The process should hold up in court, so it should be fair, you should know who is accusing you and you should be able to defend yourself. (may's are not must's in the proposal) Cheers, Alex-- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221 On Fri, 16-09-2022 13h 20min, Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> wrote:
Good Afternoon,
In the last few days there have been a few emails about the draft CoC documents and, without any hat on, I want to address a few things.
The RIPE community is special. It's amazing and wonderful and I love it… but also in so many ways, it is not special at all. It is not immune to the issues that have cropped up elsewhere and, importantly, also crop up in RIPE. This may be hard to hear but it's true. There are people who have left our community due to unwelcome attention, incidents of sexual harassment or repeatedly being told - through deeds if not words - that they are not welcome here.
Worse are the people who could contribute so much to the operation of the Internet who look at our community, talk with others about it, and simply shake their heads - "That's not a place for me."
These are the sad commonalities between communities, these are the ways in which RIPE is decidedly not special.
A suitably, carefully, fairly, enforced Code of Conduct is just one of the many ways of making things better. It sets out the norms of behaviour and, importantly, it says "If you come here and people act badly towards you – we want to know about it, we will care, and we will act." If you want, you can think of it like MANRS or similar. It says that as a community, we have thought about things, that we acknowledge the issues we have, and we are working to improve them.
This is not a court of law. It is a community driven effort, and so, like every other effort, we put our trust in those who we appoint, while maintaining the ability to course correct, knowing that there are checks and balances. In fact, I'm extremely happy for those that need to make reports that it isn't a court of law, as such courts, in countries around the world, have been seen to be adversarial towards those who seek justice for things like sexual assault. They put great hurt on the victims and have a truly awful record in bringing that justice. But again, this is not a court of law.
Nor is it a way to attack the correct (or whatever passes for correct) use of grammar. But it can be a way to improve communications. It can be a way for a community to clearly say "That isn't a good way to interact, especially if we want to be open." There are many, many ways to have robust technical discussion without giving people the impression that their opinions are not wanted, as has happened many times in the past. And we are getting better at this as a community, but a CoC will help us more.
As I have said repeatedly over many years, things happen at RIPE Meetings that the community does not, or should not, want to happen. The previous system gave the victims of those things someone to talk to, which is important, but little more than that. A CoC provides a means of recourse, which has been proven to work in communities around the world.
There will be a few growing pains, for sure. There will be people who prejudge all of this, who decide that this changes the community too much. It might even cause them to leave. In many cases that will be a great pity and I hope they stick around - but if this prevents others leaving because they feel unsafe, or from being subjected to behaviour that all of us agree is unacceptable, then, well, I know where I'm happier.
No process is perfect, we're humans, but this is a really, really good next step (and yes, I would say that, of course). I believe it will make a difference in who joins our community and for how long they stay. I believe it will, in some small way, improve the sector in which we all work. And thankfully my beliefs are backed up by what we've seen in other communities.
Importantly, we can do other things at the same time and I look forward to what other new things this community does, and what excellent initiatives it continues, which will make it better for all.
I know I will not convince everyone (this is not the first time I've had this discussion in a community, not even in the RIPE community), and I know that a lot of people in the community are convinced (or convinced enough) already, but I didn't want to stay silent on this thread. This is too important for the community right now, and for the future, for those of us here, and those of us we hope will join us.
Thanks,
Brian
Brian Nisbet (he/him) Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270
Alex, I do not know what you believe is a "proper and fair CoC process"? I obviously agree with your opening lines, but after that it seems to be an exercise in spreading or expressing confusion. What the TF are proposing is the same kind of CoC and processes that are used in communities all over the world. This is not something radical and strange for the RIPE Community. If anything the process being put forth here is more conservative than many others. There are no hair trigger expulsions being proposed and there is little scope for any radical actors. And if I'm wrong in my fortune telling, then we, as a community, can course correct. I absolutely reject that all CoC decisions must stand up in a court of law. The community does not, rightly, have the power to fine nor imprison. Fairness is important, of course, and we will be asked, as a community, to choose people we trust, to take those fair decisions. Brian Brian Nisbet (he/him) Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270 ________________________________ From: Alex de Joode <alex@idgara.nl> Sent: Friday 16 September 2022 15:15 To: Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> Cc: ripe-list@ripe.net <ripe-list@ripe.net>; diversity@ripe.net <diversity@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [ripe-list] Communities & Codes of Conduct CAUTION[External]: This email originated from outside of the organisation. Do not click on links or open the attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe. Brian thanks for your contribution. I believe all see the need for a Code of Conduct. All see the need for a process to enforce the Code of Conduct. The issues are 'what is the intention of the CoC', 'how do we want to enforce the CoC' and 'what is the status of the CoC team'. It looks the CoC is more than a 'this is how one should behave during a RIPE event/mailinglist etc', it looks like to tool to actively create "more justice/diversity (Vesna)". These are two different goals. A proper and fair CoC process might lead to a more diverse participation, no need to skew this process. Is this an adversarial process whereby the role of the CoC team is neutral one, or is skewed towards complainers. For the majority of cases, as you stated, this will not be an issue. However we also need to think about the outliers, if this process is a 'guilty until proven innocent, but hey we do not like you so guilty as accused' that is not OK. No matter how much 'transformative justice' you want to deliver. The process should hold up in court, so it should be fair, you should know who is accusing you and you should be able to defend yourself. (may's are not must's in the proposal) Cheers, Alex -- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | alex@idgara.nl | +31651108221 On Fri, 16-09-2022 13h 20min, Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie> wrote: Good Afternoon, In the last few days there have been a few emails about the draft CoC documents and, without any hat on, I want to address a few things. The RIPE community is special. It's amazing and wonderful and I love it… but also in so many ways, it is not special at all. It is not immune to the issues that have cropped up elsewhere and, importantly, also crop up in RIPE. This may be hard to hear but it's true. There are people who have left our community due to unwelcome attention, incidents of sexual harassment or repeatedly being told - through deeds if not words - that they are not welcome here. Worse are the people who could contribute so much to the operation of the Internet who look at our community, talk with others about it, and simply shake their heads - "That's not a place for me." These are the sad commonalities between communities, these are the ways in which RIPE is decidedly not special. A suitably, carefully, fairly, enforced Code of Conduct is just one of the many ways of making things better. It sets out the norms of behaviour and, importantly, it says "If you come here and people act badly towards you – we want to know about it, we will care, and we will act." If you want, you can think of it like MANRS or similar. It says that as a community, we have thought about things, that we acknowledge the issues we have, and we are working to improve them. This is not a court of law. It is a community driven effort, and so, like every other effort, we put our trust in those who we appoint, while maintaining the ability to course correct, knowing that there are checks and balances. In fact, I'm extremely happy for those that need to make reports that it isn't a court of law, as such courts, in countries around the world, have been seen to be adversarial towards those who seek justice for things like sexual assault. They put great hurt on the victims and have a truly awful record in bringing that justice. But again, this is not a court of law. Nor is it a way to attack the correct (or whatever passes for correct) use of grammar. But it can be a way to improve communications. It can be a way for a community to clearly say "That isn't a good way to interact, especially if we want to be open." There are many, many ways to have robust technical discussion without giving people the impression that their opinions are not wanted, as has happened many times in the past. And we are getting better at this as a community, but a CoC will help us more. As I have said repeatedly over many years, things happen at RIPE Meetings that the community does not, or should not, want to happen. The previous system gave the victims of those things someone to talk to, which is important, but little more than that. A CoC provides a means of recourse, which has been proven to work in communities around the world. There will be a few growing pains, for sure. There will be people who prejudge all of this, who decide that this changes the community too much. It might even cause them to leave. In many cases that will be a great pity and I hope they stick around - but if this prevents others leaving because they feel unsafe, or from being subjected to behaviour that all of us agree is unacceptable, then, well, I know where I'm happier. No process is perfect, we're humans, but this is a really, really good next step (and yes, I would say that, of course). I believe it will make a difference in who joins our community and for how long they stay. I believe it will, in some small way, improve the sector in which we all work. And thankfully my beliefs are backed up by what we've seen in other communities. Importantly, we can do other things at the same time and I look forward to what other new things this community does, and what excellent initiatives it continues, which will make it better for all. I know I will not convince everyone (this is not the first time I've had this discussion in a community, not even in the RIPE community), and I know that a lot of people in the community are convinced (or convinced enough) already, but I didn't want to stay silent on this thread. This is too important for the community right now, and for the future, for those of us here, and those of us we hope will join us. Thanks, Brian Brian Nisbet (he/him) Service Operations Manager HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland +35316609040 brian.nisbet@heanet.ie www.heanet.ie Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270
What Brian said.
As I have said repeatedly over many years, things happen at RIPE Meetings that the community does not, or should not, want to happen. The previous system gave the victims of those things someone to talk to, which is important, but little more than that. A CoC provides a means of recourse, which has been proven to work in communities around the world.
At the age of 51, I am now learning that I'm not (and probably never have been) neurotypical. Part of my self-education has been learning that more of the things that I think are funny, sometimes are offensive to others in interesting ways. (more often, fortunately, they just come across as obscure). Attempts to communicate clearly and unambiguously sometimes come across as passive aggressive. So, one of the reasons I like the CoC step for most things is that it can provide a way for me to learn of my mistakes without making situations more awkward. [And I see that I've just done a tangent before the point communication again] -- Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
participants (4)
-
Alex de Joode -
Brian Nisbet -
Leslie -
Michael Richardson