Can you please stop calling it law? It is NOT a law! -Cynthia On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 1:41 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ < jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote:

That’s my point, we are actually writing “our law”

El 25/11/21 13:39, "ripe-list en nombre de Cynthia Revström via ripe-list" <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de ripe-list@ripe.net> escribió:

But this is not law, it is a procedural document, and procedural documents can include suggestions even if national laws often don't.

The argument that it can't contain suggestions just because normal national laws often don't, is extremely silly.

-Cynthia

On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 1:36 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ < jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote:

That’s my point, we are actually writing “our law”

Saludos,

Jordi

@jordipalet

El 25/11/21 13:34, "Cynthia Revström" <me@cynthia.re> escribió:

Yes but this is NOT law as Sander said, we are not writing a law here.

This is a procedural document in a community, not a law.

-Cynthia

On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 1:30 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via ripe-list < ripe-list@ripe.net> wrote:

Hi Sander,

Just count how many proposals have reached consensus even if they have not got a previous discussion in the list. Is a matter of numbers.

Law != suggestions, law must be strict and avoid as much as possible subjective interpretations.

El 25/11/21 13:17, "ripe-list en nombre de Sander Steffann" < ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de sander@steffann.nl> escribió:

Jordi,

> 4) The text about the "idea" is wrong and untrue. Past experience doesn't show that.

No, *your* past behaviour doesn't show that. You just dumping policy proposals on a mailing list without discussing the idea first is probably one of the reasons why this paragraph is included, and I STRONGLY support it.

> There have been many policy proposals that didn't followed that process and they are actual policies. The PDP is a set of rules, strict rules of a process, not "rules and suggestions". We can't mix rules and suggestions in a formal PDP text.

Yes we can, we are not writing law.

Cheers, Sander

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Law is not just a government thing, it is also a community defined set or rules, procedures, etc. and yes, we need to “enforce it” otherwise, we don’t need a procedure that dictates how we discuss, evaluate consensus, what are the timings, etc. El 25/11/21 13:44, "ripe-list en nombre de Cynthia Revström via ripe-list" <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de ripe-list@ripe.net> escribió: Or maybe I am mistaken and we actually have RIPE PDP courts and police to enforce these laws and I have just missed them. -Cynthia On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 1:42 PM Cynthia Revström <me@cynthia.re> wrote: Can you please stop calling it law? It is NOT a law! -Cynthia On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 1:41 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote: That’s my point, we are actually writing “our law” El 25/11/21 13:39, "ripe-list en nombre de Cynthia Revström via ripe-list" <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de ripe-list@ripe.net> escribió: But this is not law, it is a procedural document, and procedural documents can include suggestions even if national laws often don't. The argument that it can't contain suggestions just because normal national laws often don't, is extremely silly. -Cynthia On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 1:36 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote: That’s my point, we are actually writing “our law” Saludos, Jordi @jordipalet El 25/11/21 13:34, "Cynthia Revström" <me@cynthia.re> escribió: Yes but this is NOT law as Sander said, we are not writing a law here. This is a procedural document in a community, not a law. -Cynthia On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 1:30 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via ripe-list <ripe-list@ripe.net> wrote: Hi Sander, Just count how many proposals have reached consensus even if they have not got a previous discussion in the list. Is a matter of numbers. Law != suggestions, law must be strict and avoid as much as possible subjective interpretations. El 25/11/21 13:17, "ripe-list en nombre de Sander Steffann" <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de sander@steffann.nl> escribió: Jordi, > 4) The text about the "idea" is wrong and untrue. Past experience doesn't show that. No, *your* past behaviour doesn't show that. You just dumping policy proposals on a mailing list without discussing the idea first is probably one of the reasons why this paragraph is included, and I STRONGLY support it. > There have been many policy proposals that didn't followed that process and they are actual policies. The PDP is a set of rules, strict rules of a process, not "rules and suggestions". We can't mix rules and suggestions in a formal PDP text. Yes we can, we are not writing law. Cheers, Sander To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ripe-list ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. 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Absolutely now, it is our law. You can change the word, you can call it whatever you want, but it is the way we manage our processes, etc., in the Spanish dictionary this is law, and I guess is the same translation in English. El 25/11/21 13:43, "Cynthia Revström" <me@cynthia.re> escribió: Can you please stop calling it law? It is NOT a law! -Cynthia On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 1:41 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote: That’s my point, we are actually writing “our law” El 25/11/21 13:39, "ripe-list en nombre de Cynthia Revström via ripe-list" <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de ripe-list@ripe.net> escribió: But this is not law, it is a procedural document, and procedural documents can include suggestions even if national laws often don't. The argument that it can't contain suggestions just because normal national laws often don't, is extremely silly. -Cynthia On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 1:36 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote: That’s my point, we are actually writing “our law” Saludos, Jordi @jordipalet El 25/11/21 13:34, "Cynthia Revström" <me@cynthia.re> escribió: Yes but this is NOT law as Sander said, we are not writing a law here. This is a procedural document in a community, not a law. -Cynthia On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 1:30 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via ripe-list <ripe-list@ripe.net> wrote: Hi Sander, Just count how many proposals have reached consensus even if they have not got a previous discussion in the list. Is a matter of numbers. Law != suggestions, law must be strict and avoid as much as possible subjective interpretations. El 25/11/21 13:17, "ripe-list en nombre de Sander Steffann" <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de sander@steffann.nl> escribió: Jordi, > 4) The text about the "idea" is wrong and untrue. Past experience doesn't show that. No, *your* past behaviour doesn't show that. You just dumping policy proposals on a mailing list without discussing the idea first is probably one of the reasons why this paragraph is included, and I STRONGLY support it. > There have been many policy proposals that didn't followed that process and they are actual policies. The PDP is a set of rules, strict rules of a process, not "rules and suggestions". We can't mix rules and suggestions in a formal PDP text. Yes we can, we are not writing law. Cheers, Sander To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ripe-list ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. 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I just looked at an English dictionary, just in case the definition is not the same as in Spanish, but it is: Law: the system of rules which a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and which it may enforce by the imposition of penalties. a rule defining correct procedure or behaviour in a sport. I understand that some people consider a law as only if it is from a government, but that’s not the actual definition. The PDP, the policies, etc., are our “laws”. El 25/11/21 13:46, "ripe-list en nombre de Cynthia Revström via ripe-list" <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de ripe-list@ripe.net> escribió: Jordi, I am going to leave this discussion now for a bit but please don't take that as me agreeing with you but simply that I find it difficult to keep talking with you about this without starting to say some harsh words. -Cynthia On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 1:44 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via ripe-list <ripe-list@ripe.net> wrote: Absolutely now, it is our law. You can change the word, you can call it whatever you want, but it is the way we manage our processes, etc., in the Spanish dictionary this is law, and I guess is the same translation in English. El 25/11/21 13:43, "Cynthia Revström" <me@cynthia.re> escribió: Can you please stop calling it law? It is NOT a law! -Cynthia On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 1:41 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote: That’s my point, we are actually writing “our law” El 25/11/21 13:39, "ripe-list en nombre de Cynthia Revström via ripe-list" <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de ripe-list@ripe.net> escribió: But this is not law, it is a procedural document, and procedural documents can include suggestions even if national laws often don't. The argument that it can't contain suggestions just because normal national laws often don't, is extremely silly. -Cynthia On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 1:36 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote: That’s my point, we are actually writing “our law” Saludos, Jordi @jordipalet El 25/11/21 13:34, "Cynthia Revström" <me@cynthia.re> escribió: Yes but this is NOT law as Sander said, we are not writing a law here. This is a procedural document in a community, not a law. -Cynthia On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 1:30 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via ripe-list <ripe-list@ripe.net> wrote: Hi Sander, Just count how many proposals have reached consensus even if they have not got a previous discussion in the list. Is a matter of numbers. Law != suggestions, law must be strict and avoid as much as possible subjective interpretations. El 25/11/21 13:17, "ripe-list en nombre de Sander Steffann" <ripe-list-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de sander@steffann.nl> escribió: Jordi, > 4) The text about the "idea" is wrong and untrue. Past experience doesn't show that. No, *your* past behaviour doesn't show that. You just dumping policy proposals on a mailing list without discussing the idea first is probably one of the reasons why this paragraph is included, and I STRONGLY support it. > There have been many policy proposals that didn't followed that process and they are actual policies. The PDP is a set of rules, strict rules of a process, not "rules and suggestions". We can't mix rules and suggestions in a formal PDP text. Yes we can, we are not writing law. Cheers, Sander To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ripe-list ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. 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