DRAFT: Principles for Remuneration of the RIPE Chairs
Dear friends, After much unexpected delay, I am at last ready to ask you to read and comment on this DRAFT statement of principles for remuneration of the RIPE Chairs, which follows from a recommendation of the RIPE 2020 Nominating Committee. As your mail-reading app allows, you may choose to read this message either as plain text or as HTML; I also attach a PDF edition. I look forward to reading your comments. Best regards, Niall O'Reilly, RIPE Vice-Chair --- # Principles for Remuneration of the RIPE Chairs ## Notes for editorial attention This section is to be removed prior to publication. - Assign RIPE document number - Identify authors and acknowledge other contributors after obtaining corresponding consent from each. - Ensure that references are current. ## Introduction The RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair (together, the RIPE Chairs) have roles described in *The RIPE Chair* ([ripe-714][]). They are selected according to the process set out in *The RIPE Chair Selection Process* ([ripe-727][]). Over the years taking on the role of a RIPE Chair has become a significant commitment, as recognized in discussions on the RIPE Discussion List in [2017][initial discussion] and [2018][call for further discussion]. The sensitivity to conflicts of interest has increased too. In 2020 the RIPE Nominating committee selected Mirjam Kühne as RIPE Chair. Mirjam needed to resign from her job with the RIPE NCC before taking on the role. On recommendation by the Nominations Committee the RIPE NCC offered to provide reasonable remuneration while making [arrangements][] so that Mirjam can act without undue influence from the RIPE NCC. During this process questions were raised from the community about providing remuneration for RIPE Chairs and specifically whether it is appropriate that the RIPE NCC provides such funding. The RIPE Nominating committee made this recommendation (among others) in its report ( [ripe-762][]), *“Document community consensus about remuneration of the RIPE Chairs”*. At the time of writing the community has had some experience with the [arrangements][] mentioned above. ## Scope This document describes the principles of the RIPE community for remuneration of the RIPE Chairs including requests to the RIPE NCC in this regard. ## Principles The community wishes to be sure that the RIPE Chairs are able to put in the necessary effort for their roles and to stay clear of the perception of undue influence. RIPE Chairs will disclose to the community all potential conflicts of interest arising from their role as RIPE Chair as they arise including how they address them. In particular they will disclose their significant means of subsistence. RIPE Chair nominees will make this disclosure to the RIPE Nominating Committee. The community requests that the RIPE NCC continue to reimburse the expenses incurred by the RIPE Chairs in their roles. The community requests that, upon request by a RIPE Chair, the RIPE NCC provides appropriate remuneration for the time the RIPE Chair spends fulfilling their role. The community requests that the concrete arrangements for this shall ensure that the RIPE Chairs can perform their duties without undue influence from the RIPE NCC and that the RIPE NCC informs the community how this is arranged. The community requests the RIPE NCC Executive Board take responsibility for implementing these concrete arrangements. The community requests that the RIPE NCC continues to disclose the total cost of RIPE Chair support including expenses and any remuneration. ## Provenance The RIPE Chairs started working on this document in mid-2022, taking advice from the RIPE NCC. Daniel Karrenberg subsequently made a more concise draft on request of the RIPE Chairs. The RIPE NCC has indicated that it will consider the requests made in this document once the community reaches consensus on the final text. ## Historical and prospective timeline - 2017-11-25: [initial discussion][] on RIPE Discussion List started by Erik Bais - 2018-02-19: [call for further discussion][] by Nigel Titley - late 2022: preparation of draft proposal - 2023-03-07: initial draft released for community discussion - 202y-mm-dd: call for consensus issued - 202y-mm-dd: consensus declared - 202y-mm-dd: published as RIPE-nnnn ## Acknowledgements - RIPE 2020 Nominating Committee ## References - *The RIPE Chair* ([ripe-714][]) - *The RIPE Chair Selection Process* ([ripe-727][]) - *2020 RIPE Nominating Committee Report* ([ripe-762][]) --- [ripe-714]: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-714/ [ripe-762]: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-762/ [ripe-727]: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-727/ [initial discussion]: https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2017-November/001268.html [call for further discussion]: https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2018-February/001334.html [arrangements]: https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2020-August/001945.html ---
Hi Mr Vice Chair :)
After much unexpected delay, I am at last ready to ask you to read and comment on this DRAFT statement of principles for remuneration of the RIPE Chairs, which follows from a recommendation of the RIPE 2020 Nominating Committee.
As your mail-reading app allows, you may choose to read this message either as plain text or as HTML; I also attach a PDF edition. I look forward to reading your comments.
Nice and short :) I think this covers the important things: nominees declare where their income comes from, RIPE NCC will provide remuneration when asked to do so, financial consequences are disclosed. All good! The only thing I would like to be made explicit is whether this also applies to the vice-chair. This may depend on how the chair and vice-chair divide the work. Maybe the remuneration can be divided between the chairs? Or maybe we need to offer both chairs full remuneration? Or we explicitly don’t make a decision on this and leave it to the RIPE NCC? Thanks for working on this! Sander
I think this covers the important things: nominees declare where their income comes from, RIPE NCC will provide remuneration when asked to do so, financial consequences are disclosed. All good!
yes, seems about as reasonable as we can easily achieve. randy
Niall, Thank you for this. I think this is fine, but I have one comment :
On 7 Mar 2023, at 16:40, Niall O'Reilly <niall.oreilly@ucd.ie> wrote:
The community requests the RIPE NCC Executive Board take responsibility for implementing these concrete arrangements.
The community requests that the RIPE NCC continues to disclose the total cost of RIPE Chair support including expenses and any remuneration.
This sets out that the RIPE NCC Executive Board essentially will negotiate an appropriate remuneration for the Chair(s). However, it doesn’t say what happens if they fail to reach an agreement. May I suggest that we add some wording on this, for example that "if the EB does not feel the remuneration requested by a chair is resonable or for other reasons an agreement can not be made, this is to be referred back to the Nomcom to consider if other candidates are better to be considered or not” or something similar. - kurtis -
Kurtis,colleagues, this is indeedone of the scenarios where the remuneration arrangementwouldnot work.We should not put a specific way to deal with situations like this in the document because we cannot foresee the details of the specific situation and we do have the governance structures in placeto take appropriate action. See below for a more verbose version of my thoughts on this. Best Daniel ------ In the arrangement described in the draft, the RIPE community requests that the RIPE NCC provide remuneration for the RIPE Chairs under the RIPE NCC's own responsibility and corporate governance. The RIPE NCC has indicated that it is prepared to accept this responsibility and in practice it already does this. The RIPE NCC could inform the RIPE community that it cannot provide remuneration for the RIPE Chairs at any time and for any reason including the specific scenario you describe. Given the governance structure of the RIPE NCC this will not likely be an ad-hoc or arbitrary decision. It would then be up to the RIPE community to evaluate the situation at hand and either seek other arrangements for the remuneration of the RIPE Chairs or recall them. The specific procedure you propose to deal with one of these casesrequires that the NomCom become a permanent committee which requires extra commitment from volunteers; it also provides an obvious and pre-agreed way for the RIPE NCC to influence the selection of the RIPE leadership. I do not think we should go there. Given the close relations between the RIPE NCC and the RIPE community and the formal liaison between the RIPE NCC board and the RIPE NomCom I consider the language in the draft sufficient for this to work and to prevent accidents. Daniel a RIPE NCC employee, speaking for himself as a long time RIPE participant and former RIPE NomCom chair On 09-03-2023 11:36, Kurtis Lindqvist wrote:
Niall,
Thank you for this. I think this is fine, but I have one comment :
On 7 Mar 2023, at 16:40, Niall O'Reilly <niall.oreilly@ucd.ie> wrote:
The community requests the RIPE NCC Executive Board take responsibility for implementing these concrete arrangements.
The community requests that the RIPE NCC continues to disclose the total cost of RIPE Chair support including expenses and any remuneration.
This sets out that the RIPE NCC Executive Board essentially will negotiate an appropriate remuneration for the Chair(s). However, it doesn’t say what happens if they fail to reach an agreement. May I suggest that we add some wording on this, for example that "if the EB does not feel the remuneration requested by a chair is resonable or for other reasons an agreement can not be made, this is to be referred back to the Nomcom to consider if other candidates are better to be considered or not” or something similar.
- kurtis -
Ladies and gentlemen On 14/03/2023 15:14, Daniel Karrenberg wrote:
Kurtis,colleagues,
this is indeedone of the scenarios where the remuneration arrangementwouldnot work.We should not put a specific way to deal with situations like this in the document because we cannot foresee the details of the specific situation and we do have the governance structures in placeto take appropriate action. See below for a more verbose version of my thoughts on this.
I agree with Daniel. It is generally counter-productive to try and cater for all possible situations in such a document. One should instead state general principles and assume a modicum of common-sense and good will from those involved. Nigel
On 07/03/2023 16:40, Niall O'Reilly wrote:
Dear friends,
After much unexpected delay, I am at last ready to ask you to read and comment on this DRAFT statement of principles for remuneration of the RIPE Chairs, which follows from a recommendation of the RIPE 2020 Nominating Committee.
As your mail-reading app allows, you may choose to read this message either as plain text or as HTML; I also attach a PDF edition.
I look forward to reading your comments.
Looking back on the original discussion I was reminded of how little consensus there was on the original proposals. Are we happy that the proposal from the Nomcom is actually the one we are in favour of. Support for the three proposals in my original email seemed pretty well split amongst the three scenarios with maybe a slight bias against formulating a RIPE foundation to employ the RIPE chairs. I'm still slightly worried about undue influence from the RIPE NCC on the RIPE chair despite all the assurances to the contrary from HPH and others. I know only too well how insidious such influences can be. Having said that, it may well be that continuing to accept that the RIPE NCC continues to employ the RIPE Chair(s) is the only workable solution. Nigel
On 14 Mar 2023, at 17:59, Nigel Titley via ripe-list <ripe-list@ripe.net> wrote:
Having said that, it may well be that continuing to accept that the RIPE NCC continues to employ the RIPE Chair(s) is the only workable solution.
Would it be any better if the RIPE Chair was remunerated out of funding from the Rob Blokzijl foundation? Joao
On 15/03/2023 10:08, Joao Luis Silva Damas wrote:
On 14 Mar 2023, at 17:59, Nigel Titley via ripe-list <ripe-list@ripe.net> wrote:
Having said that, it may well be that continuing to accept that the RIPE NCC continues to employ the RIPE Chair(s) is the only workable solution.
Would it be any better if the RIPE Chair was remunerated out of funding from the Rob Blokzijl foundation?
Well, possibly. It would introduce an extra layer of insulation between the RIPE NCC and the RIPE Chair, but the major funding for the foundation is still the NCC. I've got a slightly more ideological objection to the RIPE Chair being a full time position. I do feel that someone who's full time job is to be a Chair will tend to move towards a state of mind insulated from the Real World (tm), which is why I always felt that the Chair should be part time role. And there is always the temptation to make work to fill the time available. However, this is a personal opinion. Nigel
Dear friends, Thanks to all of you who took time to read the draft which I sent last week, and especially to everyone who reacted or suggested changes, either privately or via the RIPE Discussion List. Please see below, and attached as PDF, a revised draft, in which we have - identified the document's authors, to wit, Daniel Karrenberg and myself; - tried to resolve the ambiguity arising from the overlapping meanings of "RIPE Chair" by referring explicitly to either or each of the Chair and Vice-Chair roles except in citations from other documents; - considered simplifying the language around "remuneration", but without finding a satisfactory solution; - considered specifying how to deal with the contingency that one of the selected individuals and the RIPE NCC could not agree on an arrangement, and preferred not to specify that in this document (see [message from Daniel Karrenberg]( https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2023-March/002795.html)). - made a number of minor editorial changes. An additional PDF attachment shows all but the "minor editorial" changes, with red and green backgrounds used for dropped and added text respectively. Please let us know if you think this draft requires material changes. If not, I expect to declare a last call on this document after taking advice from the RIPE NCC's Director of HR and Administration. Best regards, Niall # Principles for Remuneration of the RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair Document ID: **RIPE-nnn** (to be assigned) Authors: **Daniel Karrenberg, Niall O'Reilly** ## Notes for editorial attention This section is to be removed prior to publication. - Assign RIPE document number - Identify authors and acknowledge other contributors after obtaining corresponding consent from each. - Ensure that references are current. ## Introduction The RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair (together, the RIPE Chairs) have roles described in *The RIPE Chair* ([ripe-714][]). They are selected according to the process set out in *The RIPE Chair Selection Process* ([ripe-787][]). Over the years, taking on the role of RIPE Chair has become a significant commitment, as recognized in discussions on the RIPE Discussion List in [2017][initial discussion] and [2018][call for further discussion]. The role of RIPE Vice-Chair has subsequently been revived, and involves a comparable level of commitment. The sensitivity to conflicts of interest has increased too. In 2020 the RIPE Nominating Committee selected Mirjam Kühne as RIPE Chair. Mirjam needed to resign from her job with the RIPE NCC before taking on the role. On recommendation by the Nominations Committee the RIPE NCC offered to provide reasonable remuneration while making [arrangements][] so that Mirjam can act without undue influence from the RIPE NCC. During this process questions were raised from the community about providing remuneration for either or both of the RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair, and specifically whether it is appropriate that the RIPE NCC provide such funding. The RIPE Nominating committee made this recommendation (among others) in its report ( [ripe-762][]), *“Document community consensus about remuneration of the RIPE Chairs”*. At the time of writing the community has had some experience with the [arrangements][] mentioned above. ## Scope This document describes the principles of the RIPE community for remuneration of the RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair, and makes requests to the RIPE NCC in this regard. ## Principles The community wishes to be sure that the RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair are able to put in the necessary effort for their roles and to stay clear of undue influence, whether actual or perceived. The RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair will disclose to the community all potential conflicts of interest relating to their respective RIPE leadership role as they arise including how they address them. In particular they will disclose their significant means of subsistence. Nominees for either of these roles will make this disclosure to the RIPE Nominating Committee. The community requests that the RIPE NCC continue to reimburse the expenses incurred by the RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair in these roles. The community requests that, upon request by either or both of the RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair, the RIPE NCC provide appropriate remuneration for the time each individual spends performing their respective role. The community requests that the concrete arrangements for this shall ensure that the RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair can perform their duties without undue influence from the RIPE NCC and that the RIPE NCC inform the community how this is arranged. The community requests that the RIPE NCC Executive Board take responsibility for implementing these concrete arrangements. The community requests that the RIPE NCC continue to disclose the total cost of support for the RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair including expenses and any remuneration. ## Provenance The RIPE Chairs started working on this document in mid-2022, taking advice from the RIPE NCC. Daniel Karrenberg subsequently made a more concise draft on request of the RIPE Chairs. The RIPE NCC has indicated that it will consider the requests made in this document once the community reaches consensus on the final text. ## Historical and prospective timeline - 2017-11-25: [initial discussion][] on RIPE Discussion List started by Erik Bais - 2018-02-19: [call for further discussion][] by Nigel Titley - late 2022: preparation of draft proposal - 2023-03-07: initial draft released for community discussion - 202y-mm-dd: call for consensus issued - 202y-mm-dd: consensus declared - 202y-mm-dd: published as RIPE-nnnn ## Acknowledgements The authors gratefully acknowledge the encouragement, practical assistance, and valuable suggestions which we received from many members of the RIPE Community, including Joe Abley, Erik Bais, Randy Bush, Rob Evans, Nick Hilliard, Mirjam Kühne, Kurtis Lindqvist, Sander Steffann, Nigel Titley, Leo Vegoda, and Carolien Vos. We hope that we have not omitted to mention anyone to whom thanks are due, and ask their pardon in case we have. ## References - *The RIPE Chair* ([ripe-714][]) - *The RIPE Chair Selection Process* ([ripe-787][]) - *2020 RIPE Nominating Committee Report* ([ripe-762][]) --- [ripe-714]: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-714/ [ripe-762]: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-762/ [ripe-787]: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-787/ [initial discussion]: https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2017-November/001268.html [call for further discussion]: https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2018-February/001334.html [arrangements]: https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2020-August/001945.html ---
Hi Niall, all, During the last (and first) process for appointing people to the roles of RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair, I remember a slightly different concern being voiced than those that are addressed in this document. I thought I would mention it. The pool of highly-qualified candidates for these roles includes people in a variety of personal and financial situations. There are some who are retired, some who are independently wealthy, some with employers who are amenable to providing support for hours not spent on these community activities and others for whom a day with no billable work is a day with no income. This document addresses the question of how someone successfully appointed to one of these roles might go about negotiating some funding from the RIPE NCC but it is silent on how people can feel confident in accepting a nomination in the first place with no guarantee of funding or prior knowledge of what amount of funding might be available. This seems like a source of bias in the candidate pool that ideally would not exist. We should be as open to qualified candidates whose normal income is precarious as we are to those whose income is more predictable. People should succeed on their merits in the role, not as a function of the depth of their pockets. I think it's possible to address this concern in this document without adding a lot of complexity, e.g. by requesting a commitment from the RIPE NCC up front that a certain level of funding is definitely available to the selected candidates if they want it, no negotiation required. Perhaps it can be pegged to a particular salary range that already exists in the NCC, to avoid too much extra work. Negotiation once selected could still be welcome, but at least the baseline would be known. Making the amount of funding clear and known before people are asked to throw their hats in the ring makes it more likely that people will feel comfortable accepting nominations. Joe On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:47, Niall O'Reilly <niall.oreilly@ucd.ie> wrote:
Dear friends,
Thanks to all of you who took time to read the draft which I sent last week, and especially to everyone who reacted or suggested changes, either privately or via the RIPE Discussion List.
Please see below, and attached as PDF, a revised draft, in which we have
-
identified the document's authors, to wit, Daniel Karrenberg and myself;
-
tried to resolve the ambiguity arising from the overlapping meanings of "RIPE Chair" by referring explicitly to either or each of the Chair and Vice-Chair roles except in citations from other documents;
-
considered simplifying the language around "remuneration", but without finding a satisfactory solution;
-
considered specifying how to deal with the contingency that one of the selected individuals and the RIPE NCC could not agree on an arrangement, and preferred not to specify that in this document (see [message from Daniel Karrenberg](https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2023-March/002795.html)).
-
made a number of minor editorial changes.
An additional PDF attachment shows all but the "minor editorial" changes, with red and green backgrounds used for dropped and added text respectively.
Please let us know if you think this draft requires material changes. If not, I expect to declare a last call on this document after taking advice from the RIPE NCC's Director of HR and Administration.
Best regards, Niall
Principles for Remuneration of the RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair
Document ID: RIPE-nnn (to be assigned) Authors: Daniel Karrenberg, Niall O'Reilly
Notes for editorial attention
This section is to be removed prior to publication.
- Assign RIPE document number - Identify authors and acknowledge other contributors after obtaining corresponding consent from each. - Ensure that references are current.
Introduction
The RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair (together, the RIPE Chairs) have roles described in The RIPE Chair ([ripe-714](https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-714/)). They are selected according to the process set out in The RIPE Chair Selection Process ([ripe-787](https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-787/)).
Over the years, taking on the role of RIPE Chair has become a significant commitment, as recognized in discussions on the RIPE Discussion List in [2017](https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2017-November/001268.html) and [2018](https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2018-February/001334.html). The role of RIPE Vice-Chair has subsequently been revived, and involves a comparable level of commitment. The sensitivity to conflicts of interest has increased too.
In 2020 the RIPE Nominating Committee selected Mirjam Kühne as RIPE Chair. Mirjam needed to resign from her job with the RIPE NCC before taking on the role. On recommendation by the Nominations Committee the RIPE NCC offered to provide reasonable remuneration while making [arrangements](https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2020-August/001945.html) so that Mirjam can act without undue influence from the RIPE NCC.
During this process questions were raised from the community about providing remuneration for either or both of the RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair, and specifically whether it is appropriate that the RIPE NCC provide such funding.
The RIPE Nominating committee made this recommendation (among others) in its report ( [ripe-762](https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-762/)), “Document community consensus about remuneration of the RIPE Chairs”.
At the time of writing the community has had some experience with the [arrangements](https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2020-August/001945.html) mentioned above.
Scope
This document describes the principles of the RIPE community for remuneration of the RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair, and makes requests to the RIPE NCC in this regard.
Principles
The community wishes to be sure that the RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair are able to put in the necessary effort for their roles and to stay clear of undue influence, whether actual or perceived.
The RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair will disclose to the community all potential conflicts of interest relating to their respective RIPE leadership role as they arise including how they address them. In particular they will disclose their significant means of subsistence. Nominees for either of these roles will make this disclosure to the RIPE Nominating Committee.
The community requests that the RIPE NCC continue to reimburse the expenses incurred by the RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair in these roles.
The community requests that, upon request by either or both of the RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair, the RIPE NCC provide appropriate remuneration for the time each individual spends performing their respective role.
The community requests that the concrete arrangements for this shall ensure that the RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair can perform their duties without undue influence from the RIPE NCC and that the RIPE NCC inform the community how this is arranged.
The community requests that the RIPE NCC Executive Board take responsibility for implementing these concrete arrangements.
The community requests that the RIPE NCC continue to disclose the total cost of support for the RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair including expenses and any remuneration.
Provenance
The RIPE Chairs started working on this document in mid-2022, taking advice from the RIPE NCC. Daniel Karrenberg subsequently made a more concise draft on request of the RIPE Chairs.
The RIPE NCC has indicated that it will consider the requests made in this document once the community reaches consensus on the final text.
Historical and prospective timeline
- 2017-11-25: [initial discussion](https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2017-November/001268.html) on RIPE Discussion List started by Erik Bais - 2018-02-19: [call for further discussion](https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2018-February/001334.html) by Nigel Titley - late 2022: preparation of draft proposal - 2023-03-07: initial draft released for community discussion - 202y-mm-dd: call for consensus issued - 202y-mm-dd: consensus declared - 202y-mm-dd: published as RIPE-nnnn
Acknowledgements
The authors gratefully acknowledge the encouragement, practical assistance, and valuable suggestions which we received from many members of the RIPE Community, including Joe Abley, Erik Bais, Randy Bush, Rob Evans, Nick Hilliard, Mirjam Kühne, Kurtis Lindqvist, Sander Steffann, Nigel Titley, Leo Vegoda, and Carolien Vos.
We hope that we have not omitted to mention anyone to whom thanks are due, and ask their pardon in case we have.
References
- The RIPE Chair ([ripe-714](https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-714/)) - The RIPE Chair Selection Process ([ripe-787](https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-787/)) - 2020 RIPE Nominating Committee Report ([ripe-762](https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-762/))
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Joe On 15/03/2023 12:38, Joe Abley wrote:
Making the amount of funding clear and known before people are asked to throw their hats in the ring makes it more likely that people will feel comfortable accepting nominations.
I think this actually addressed in the document by making it clear that if a Chair needs remuneration they may ask for it. If they don't then they don't have to receive it. I think that actually putting the level of available funding in the document is a bit too specific. So I don't think this actually needs addressing Nigel
participants (8)
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Daniel Karrenberg -
Joao Luis Silva Damas -
Joe Abley -
Kurtis Lindqvist -
Niall O'Reilly -
Nigel Titley -
Randy Bush -
Sander Steffann