This will not work. Allowing every resource holder in the world to use their own form means that you need to develop tons of specific reporting tools to match all those specific formats and bring the cost of that to the victims. Meanwhile, if reporting is done by email, attaching logs, it can be processed by the ISP that get the money from the abusive customer, and if the cost (if any) falls on the right side. In addition to that, RFC5965 is only for reporting about email, but not other abuse cases. I agree that ideally, we should have X-ARF as a standard for *any* abuse reporting, and if you followed the previous discussion (a few weeks ago), I’m already working on that, but this will take typically 2 years. When this happens, we can update the existing policy to mandate the use of that standard. Regards, Jordi El 18/5/19 14:36, "Alex de Joode" <alex@idgara.nl> escribió: ​Thanks Jordi, You cannot force LIR's to act in the fashion below (that is wishful thinking). However you can make transparant, how abuse desks deal with complaints. I would therefore suggest the following: Keep the current validation procedure, add a date to the abuse-whois, when the address was last sucessfully checked. Give LIR's the options to add an acceptable abuse format for automated processing to the whois. By this you                         - make visible the adres works;                                                                - make the abuse whois act as a source for how responsible organisations deal with abuse. I could image there would be the one or more of the following options: {blank} = not filled in by LIR {manual} = LIR handles abuse in a manual fashion {XARF} = accepts Xarf/RFC5965 form and handles them automatically {other specification, maybe with URL} {api with url} {'whatever'} This would be more valuable for the whole global abuse handling process than the burdensome time waster that is now proposed. ​-- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | +31651108221 On Sat, 18-05-2019 13h 31min, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net> wrote: Hi Alex, The intent of this policy is to ensure that the validation process is useful, and that means ensuring that the inbox is working, real (not from somebody else), monitored for abuse reports (automatically is ok if it really works, but there must be a way for human participation), and that those that send abuse reports don’t need to use a different form for every possible LIR in the world, which is not viable (unless there is a common standard for that – work in parallel but may take years). A responsible organization will deal with abuse reports, and having a working abuse-c is part of it, otherwise people can’t report abuse cases. If abuse cases are ignored you escalate to the NCC or courts, or whatever, that’s another layer. Regards, Jordi El 16/5/19 22:42, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de Alex de Joode" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces@ripe.net en nombre de alex@idgara.nl> escribió: ​Ola, ​ It's unclear to me what you are trying to accomplish with this policy: 1. ensure ripe members have a working (as in receiving mail) abuse email address; 2. ensure ripe members have a working abuse email address and process incoming mails; 3. ensure ripe members have a working abuse email address and read it; 4. ensure ripe members have a working abuse email address and act responsibly on notices. It seems you want to verify that a human reads the abuse box. However this will tell you nothing about how an organisation actually deals with abuse. So it will only burden ripe members to no avail. It is my belief ripe should stick to technical verification that a abuse email box exists and is able to receive mail. Ripe is not the internet sheriff :) Cheers, Alex ​-- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | +31651108221 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. 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Hi Nick, El 18/5/19 15:38, "Nick Hilliard" <nick@foobar.org> escribió: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg wrote on 18/05/2019 14:32: > This will not work. > > Allowing every resource holder in the world to use their own form means > that you need to develop tons of specific reporting tools to match all > those specific formats and bring the cost of that to the victims. > Meanwhile, if reporting is done by email, attaching logs, it can be > processed by the ISP that get the money from the abusive customer, and > if the cost (if any) falls on the right side. So, either RIPE LIRs adopt Jordi's work flow for abuse complaint management, or the RIPE NCC will take away their internet addresses? I'm sure you know this, just in case ... policy proposals are precisely to find an agreement in the community, so yes, it is my proposal, but it is up to the community discussion to agree on what we believe is best, this is my understanding on rough consensus. I'm definitively for making sure that the victims don't have costs, as they aren't getting money for that. I think it is a perfect valid wish. In case you haven’t noticed it, APNIC already agreed with my proposal and is being implemented. Pity that we don't have a presentation of it in the next meeting, however, it was presented last week in LACNIC and you can follow the slides and video (English) here: https://www.lacnic.net/innovaportal/file/3635/1/lacnic31-apnic-policies-upda... For the video see minute 39:00: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUU7-FTv-n0&feature=youtu.be Wow. Nick ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.